We cannot agree on this obviously. AIBU?

[bjf1]

After reading through a lot of the Relationship threads on MN, I decided that I would have to have THE TALK with my DH.
I was very calm, so was he. We both put our own points across, and I, stupidly, felt that we had made a real breakthrough.
My gripe was that he did not participate enough, both with the DCs or the home. He argued that he went to work and earned the money and that he did not think it was fair that he should come home and start work againg.
I argued that, as a SAHM to 3 DCS, I did a lot of work too throughout the day, albeit not paid work.
He argued that he was entitled to relax in the evening. I argued that so was I, and it was always me that continued with the chores whilst he relaxed watching TV.
Anyway, I really thought we had cleared the air and that things would change. But they haven't. He has made no effort at all and I am still left doing chores until long after he has sat down for a relaxing evening.
AIBU to expect him to at least try to change his attitude or what?

'With regards to the bookwork "Oh well, if it's too much like hard work for you then I'll have to do it" (dripping with sarcasm).'

He really is an utter cunt.

Doing account for a business isn't just "like hard work" it IS work. Work that most people who do it get paid for.

You are not just a SAHP, you are helping out with the family business and this evil fucker is exploiting you and keeping all the money for himself.

Seriously, divorce the fucker and get the money he owes you.

I'm ashamed to be of the same species as a scumbag like that.

Well, I suppose if I do go back to work, he will just have to put up with it, won't he?

What happens to the child benefit bfj ? How do you get access to this if you don't have access to the bank account? This above all else needs to be paid in your name as you are not working.

Put it to him like you would do to a child.

"do you want to do your packed lunch now or do you want me to do it while you do ......." - give him a choice so he thinks he is in control. If he says no then don't do his packed lunch.
or
"I'll do the books now if you will..........
or
This needs doing.....and the kids need a bed time story being read. Which one do you want to do? I'd rather read the story but I don't mind if you do.

If he refuses to co-operate then I'd do as others have suggested and "clock off" at 8. Make sure the things you haven't done will directly affect him but not the kids. Sink into the sofa with "phew i'm knackered - haven't stopped all day and bore him rigid with details of everything you've done. Maybe, just maybe, he'll feel guilty or at least get the message.

I'm just wondering whether the poor behaviour you've mentioned from your DC is a direct result of your husbands lack of involvement. Can you have a "TALK' about the psychological impact of him not being involved in their day to day lives and how it affects their behaviour and self esteem. They need to know he is interested in them and proud of them.

I do get child benefit paid into my bank account, but it's just a hole in the wall card, not a debit card.

If you can encourage him to do some fun things with the children then he might develop a better relationship with them and then feel more inclined to do the less glamorous stuff.

Do you use that money to pay for the shopping, bjf1?

You're in a horrible position, both in your day to day life with all of this falling on you, and now with your eyes having been opened a bit to how different life could be, if only your husband were willing.

I don't know how you could ever hope for him to see things differently, given his stance. Perhaps the advice givers have some ideas?

If you go back to work (which I'd really encourage) and stay with this utter wankstain, then your life will be even more miserable and you'll get ill because you'll be working AND doing everything you're doing now.

Whereas if you struck out on your own you'd have your own money, none of the domestic tasks created by his presence and a break while he cared for his own children when he had them at his place.

Sorry, OP, I do feel for you, but why have you let your DH get away without any help at all for so long? A situation as you describe does not happen ovenight. And are you teaching your 3 year old it is not ok for him to be so destructive, as that is not normal behaviour you're describing. It must be awful for your older children.
Either you find a way to make your husband help more, or you start doing less. I really don't understand why he won't help with the evening routine, so you could get on with making lunches and tidying up after tea etc. Then you could relax for the night together. Both of you are equally responsible for your family and home, so why let him get away with doing nothing? Is there any way you could go away on your own for a few days and leave him to it? I bet he would be much more willing to work with you after something as drastic as that and it would give you some time to think about what you want things to be. I think it is about time you put yourself first for once.
4 hours a day housework is way, way too much btw. 4 hours a week sounds plenty :).

It doesn't sound as if he brings anything to your relationship, or the children's lives. If you separated, you'd lose the frustration and continual stress of trying to live with such an entitled ARSE, he'd have to do his own damn lunchbox, and you would be paid a reasonable amount of maintenance.

Please stop with the "letting him get away with it" thing. This is clearly not a man who has lost his humanity along the way. This is someone who believes that it is wife's job to do all the stuff at home and with the family and he is The Breadwinner. This is not her fault. And even if it were, berating her for past (in)actions isn't going to solve her problems in the here and now.

OP, even if you are not going to do anything with the information, I would see if you can get a free half hour with a solicitor to see where you would stand in the event of a split. Just having that knowledge means that you are considering your situation with the facts at your disposal.

Tell him to pay you, get a book-keeper or do the books himself. Although, I imagine that this will not serve to better any atmosphere between you. There have been some useful tips to lesson your workload, and whilst some of that should be a joint task, at least you can lighten your load by implementing them.

You can't force him to do any of things you would like him to do. You can have a better life than this, though. Keep posting. There's lots of knowledge on these boards.

Completely agree that I can't force him to change and, tbh, I don't want to force him as that will not make things any better, will it? I want him to change his outlook because he wants to change it himself. That is not going to happen though, is it?
As has been pointed out to me, I have allowed this attitude to become the norm, so it is my fault really, isn't it?

No.

You are not his integrity-keeper. You do have it in you to change YOUR situation if you don't want to live like this and he won't even listen to your needs.

Do not go down the "my bed, I have to lie in it" route

You deserve better than that

Don't feel defeated by this

You cannot change him, he can only do it himself

I think it is going to take a big life change for you, though

So you do need to decide for yourself and your kids whether you can continue like this, and then start to act accordingly

If he mans up and comes along with you, great. If he doesn't, you will have to strike out on your own. Millions of women have done it before you, and they will continue to do so. You simply have to want it enough and have come to the end of your particular line.

If you haven't reached the end, making half hearted threats and trying to win over his good nature (not too sure if he has one...) are going to put you in a worse not better position

In other words, don't make threats unless you are prepared to follow through

I also hate it when women get blamed for men's behaviour.

But the reality of this is that you've told him what you need and you've told him how unhappy you are and he hasn't done a single thing to change.

He is telling you in the clearest terms possible that you don't matter.

If he loved you enough and cared about your happiness, he would change. If he loved you and realised that he was really going to lose you if he didn't alter his behaviour, he would change.

If you stay with him and put up with this, you're communicating that you think this is all you're worth. Nothing changes men like this more than a nasty shock.

This is not your fault - sometimes things creep up on people, over a long period of time and one day you wake up and think, how the fuck did it come to this?

You have tried to talk to him - you are not responsible for what he chooses to do.

He's not listening to you - it's what you do from here on in that matters now.

^Completely agree that I can't force him to change and, tbh, I don't want to force him as that will not make things any better, will it? I want him to change his outlook because he wants to change it himself. That is not going to happen though, is it?
As has been pointed out to me, I have allowed this attitude to become the norm, so it is my fault really, isn't it?^

Its more that lots of little decisons put you in a place you never thought you'd be. I think let "going back to work" be the driver of changes.

Alright. You can open a bank account with the Coop over the phone, just tell them you want a basic account with a debit card. No problems. There's no overdraft or anything, so credit history isn't an issue. That, at least, is a start.

How do you get the money to do the shop? Does he give you cash each month for expenses?

I have to agree that I don't understand why one partner would choose to withhold money from the other partner. DH & I have separate accounts, but I have his debit card more than he does. All the household bills come out of his account, and mine is more the slush fund - for incidental bills and savings and such. I access both accounts and transfer funds back and forth as needed. DH & I make the decisions together, but I handle it all as I'm a SAHM so have time free in the afternoons when DS3 is napping to go over the budget when needed.

I would let him "drip sarcasm"... he said it that way to shame you or embarrass you into continuing. Don't let it shake you. He obviously knows how to do the books, so let him do it. He can "drip sarcasm" til the cows come home, but do NOT give in. His business, his responsibility.

Let him make his own lunches. I can't remember the last time I made DH's work lunch. He makes his own. I bake stuff and make sure we have things available for him to put in it, but he makes it himself. If you start by having him make his lunch, after about a week, then say "oh, while you're making yours, can you put together lunches for the children while I'm doing (something else)? If you get stuck as to what to put in it, just ask and I'll let you know!Thanks!"

Same with baths. Once the 3yo's bath is done, say "oh, while you're there, can you help 5yo with their bath as well please? I'm tied up here doing (something else)! Thanks!" Breezy, matter of fact....

See what happens. Never hurts to try different approaches.

Yes, you've let it go a long time. It can be more difficult to break long habits... but doesn't mean it can't be done. His behaviour isn't your "fault" but obviously you've let it continue far too long. It most likely was a situation where you didn't mind so much when it was just one child, but as the other two came along and the work you needed to do at home increased due to growing size of family, neither of you thought much about how much of a change it is until recently.

Hmm well in our house I bring in the cash and I do the childcare and the housework. That's because I'm the only grown up in residence. And frankly it is a lot less stressful than the scenario you describe.

If I had to do all this while someone sat watching TV I would find it extremely irritating, but as it is, the kids and I are in tune and it all ticks along without drama.

The children are 8 & 4 and make their own beds, tidy their own rooms, tidy away games/toys (a bit vague about this but good enough) and help by setting/clearing the table. The older one gets drinks etc for the younger one.

The younger one knows to get himself dressed, teeth brushed and find shoes ready to go in the mornings. He is more efficient at this than the rest of us.

They both know better than to ever try to come in while I'm in the shower (they can sometimes be found sitting outside the bathroom door looking a little forlorn about whatever has happened during the 6 minutes I have been out of reach)

The older one made herself a timetable to manage homework/music practice which mostly works.

The house is not as clean or tidy as I would like but everyone is fed and watered, clothed and cared for, so I think it's pretty functional.

It is when your expectations are out of line with what is happening that distress brews and, in your case, it would seem that your expectations of help are never met. Tbh it is unlikely to change.

When you return to work, would be able to hire a cleaner? And have turns at cooking?

Well, after yet another morning of having to sort out the DCs by myself, whilst DH twatted about on his iphone, we were late for school....again.
When I returned from school run, I found DH still sat there, still twatting about on his phone. Let's just say I was not best pleased. If he knew he was still going to be home after my return, he could have offered to look after DC3 instead of me having the usual routine of chasing him round the playground.
So, I told DH that, as everyone, especially him, was always complaining that I never got the right cereal, crisps, juice, whatever, from the supermarket, he was going to do it online this evening. This will, hopefully kill 3 birds with one stone;
I don't have to do it
He won't be able to moan about the stuff I usually buy
He will see for himself just how much food costs now, as opposed to 15 years ago when he last did it.
He looked a bit suprised, but when he realised he could get what he wanted he agreed. I think he thinks it will be fun[sceptical]
I am looking forward to it too. He has "expensive tastes" and likes all branded stuff. So I am anticipating the shock he'll get at the checkout
Am also in the process of writing out a list for each child......the dreaded chores list!
Have told them to expect it ready when they get home from school. Obviously, the youngest won't be much help, but the older 2DCs are perfectly capable.
The list: Put coat, shoes and school bags away (not on the floor for ME)
Make own beds, put dirty clothes in washing machine (not on the floor for ME)
Put wet towels on radiators (not on the floor for ME)
Make own drinks and return any cups to the kitchen, not leave lying around the house leaving me to go cup hunting
rota on who dries the pots and puts dishes and cutlery away
all toys, games, books, etc to be put away before bedtime (this also includes the youngest)
I just hope this really starts to lead somewhere.

Good on you OP - May be worth implementing a star chart for the kids (so if they do all their chores they get a star - anyone with 7 stars at the end of the week gets a treat) to keep them at it.

Good for you! Just make sure he knows what he needs to buy for the DC and that if he doesn't HE will have to go to the shops during the week to pick it up because you won't!!!!!

Well done - a great start.

If your dh's shopping list turns out not to contain a full weeks worth of meals or is missing essentials, make sure you don't top up for him - get him to return to the computer and re order, so he gets the full message about cost/meal planning etc.

Well done. There will be ups and downs but this is progress and you deserve to be proud of yourself!

Another "well done" here OP