We cannot agree on this obviously. AIBU?

[bjf1]

After reading through a lot of the Relationship threads on MN, I decided that I would have to have THE TALK with my DH.
I was very calm, so was he. We both put our own points across, and I, stupidly, felt that we had made a real breakthrough.
My gripe was that he did not participate enough, both with the DCs or the home. He argued that he went to work and earned the money and that he did not think it was fair that he should come home and start work againg.
I argued that, as a SAHM to 3 DCS, I did a lot of work too throughout the day, albeit not paid work.
He argued that he was entitled to relax in the evening. I argued that so was I, and it was always me that continued with the chores whilst he relaxed watching TV.
Anyway, I really thought we had cleared the air and that things would change. But they haven't. He has made no effort at all and I am still left doing chores until long after he has sat down for a relaxing evening.
AIBU to expect him to at least try to change his attitude or what?

Tbf, the school run, when I do it, is a full hour's round trip walking, so two hours a day.

Do less chores, it will only be dusty or need ironing again tomorrow, so it isn't the end of the world if it isn't done today.

And yes find an activity to do one night a week so he has to do bedtime etc.

I used to go swimming and it absolutely kept me sane.

I shop online, probably takes 15-30 mins to order and 15 mins to put away when it arrives. I do a quick lunch in 15 mins or so and spend 30 mins to an hour on tea (sometimes less if time is tight or dd not easily placated with tupperware boxes and wooden spoons).

This situation isn't right or fair. However from what you say I can't see that you are going to change him and if you do get him helping out at all it will be temporary and resented by him. If he hasn't food shopped for 12 years then it sounds like you must have had some awareness of his traditional (Neanderthal?) views on division of domestic tasks for a long time and you have decided to stay with him and have children with him. I think realistically you have two options: plan, as best you can, how you can manage what your responsibilities now and in the future and just get on with it, or split up with him. I know this sounds really harsh but otherwise your growing resentment will taint all aspects of your relationship and neither of you will be happy. The reality is that, as a single parent, your workload probably wouldn't be much different (though financially you'd be worse off - though maybe not if it's him depriving you of access to a bank account). Only you can decide if his redeeming features outweigh this aspect of him. If they do then treasure the good bits and manage domestic responsibilities as best you can and work towards some financial independence. If not, then tell him and get some legal advice.

TBH, I think I am doing the minimum of housework. I do not wash the woodwork, as someone sugested. Yes, of course DH is contributing by actually providing the money to put a roof over our heads. But I personally don't think just being the breadwinner a father maketh.
I think I am just dissapointed that, after our talk, nothing happened. I thought he might have made an effort for a week or so, then lapsed, but he never even made it through the 1st day!!!

Even if I threw a frozen pizza in the oven, it would still take 20 mins (not including the cooking time) to put it in, take it out, put it on a plate, cut it up, clean up the table, wash the plates, dry them and put them away.

So that in itself would be 2 hours and 20 mins a week. And obviously we don't eat frozen pizza every night. Although this is hypothetical because DH does most of the cooking.

I do think that people who reckon all housework can be done in 2 hours a day are not noticing a lot of things either they or other members of their household are doing.

And DD does go to the local school. I doubt that many people live 5 mins walk from their nearest school.

Jinsei re family life - its one thing to go out and earn the money but what does he do with his family outside work time??? I should have been clearer, sorry.
I am a SAHM. DP works and is self employed and does stuff in the evening and weekends the same as me.

The shopping takes about 30 mins on the way home from the school run. Cooking is 30 mins to an hour, but I don't just cook during that time - I do other stuff at the same time - load/unload the washing machine, clean the kitchen, etc. I also batch cook and freeze meals for the days when I work and just do what prep I can when I'm doing breakfast.

Ah yes, The Talk! About Not Being Taken For Granted and treated as an unpaid round-the-clock chambermaid/restaurant/butler service. Sounds very familiar. He is being unreasonable.

Actually you already have one bargaining chip - you are doing his bookkeeping for free. How about stopping it altogether and saying you won't do it until he changes his attitude? Or start charging him for your work.

If he still won't budge, there are 2 options -1) use those 2 hours that your DS is at nursery as your "clocking off" time, and do the housework when everyone is home. Or 2) as others have mentioned, you clock off in the evening as soon as dinner is served. Others are clocking off, you clock off too.

Here's another bit about chores: your DH has to start doing some stuff, even if it's only loading the dishwasher at night and some things at the weekends like mowing the loan and some of the hoovering. Tell your DH he has to do some chores to set a GOOD EXAMPLE to his kids. He doesn't want to be remembered as the dad whose kids say "well, I have no idea what he does at work but he just dosses about at home".

Your eldest needs to start doing some chores too - eg putting out own clothes, making own bed and helping to set the table and helping bring dirty dishes into the sink/kitchen for Dad to put into dishwasher (I don't know what the layout of your home is like). Any child over 7 should have a certain number of small chores so that they can grow up with some self respect and not be one of "those" who you see in the first year of college living away from home who have no idea how to look after themselves. Your five year old can help put away toys and "direct" the three year old to do some - little kids are love to boss their younger siblings and are actually quite effective at doing getting younger siblings to do tasks.
I have often seen a direct correlation between children doing chores and higher self esteem, more confidence and better school results (if there is no tutoring involved) - I see so many children of people I know who get waited hand and foot by their mums who don't feel capable of doing anything that they haven't been spoonfed. And all the highest achieving classmates I had in school did chores - and were proud of what they were able to do.

You need to apply for a debit card -seriously! How do you withdraw money from a cash till? If you don't have a current account, apply for one just to be used as a clearing account. But for internet shopping, you must use your husband's credit card - either get him to put you on it as a joint card holder or use his details to pay. If he goes on and on about money being so important, I can't imagine how he is letting you pay for groceries day in day out with cash - think of all the reward points and cashback the household is losing. And also credit card purchases come with replacement guarantees, which cash doesn't, if an item should prove faulty that the shop won't change. They've actually found that it is greener to use an internet delivery service rather than driving to a supermarket (unless you live right next to it) - and you can also surf for bargains and reserve them. I do internet grocery shopping because 1) it works out far cheaper than walking into a supermarket for the same items, 2) it saves on petrol - my nearest supermarket is quite some distance away, 3) it saves time and hassle, esp when it's raining.

There is that perennial excuse that these men give - "I work all day so I get to relax when I come home". You don't hear working mothers (even those with SAHD husbands) saying that, I never have. I know of working mums whose hours are longer than what your DH does (full day, and then some evening and weekend shifts on top of that) who don't say "I'm entitled to relax" but who come back and say, "right, what else needs doing?" and get on and do it.

Good luck, I hope your second talk succeeds. Taking a spouse for granted is not a good way for him to treat his marriage.

When you talked to him, OP, did he agree with your perspective that he isn't pulling his weight? It seems that you expected him to change after that, so presumably he said something to make you think that he would?

I do agree that being a breadwinner isn't the be-all and end-all, but if there is a WOH/SAH division of labour in the family, and only one child not in school, I do think that the SAH parent should do the bulk of the housework in the week. As I said earlier, I think it's a different story at the weekends.

But your DH does sound quite neanderthal, tbh. I presume that you also worked before having DC, so how come he hasn't done any shopping for 12 years. Did you share the household chores equally before you became a SAHM? And please tell us how come you don't have a debit card - how do you get the money to do your shopping etc?

shoes/coats on at 8 05 down 2 flights of stairs, across a car park cajoling small boy to walk...strap children in car, car out of garage, lock garage, drive to school one, arriving early to get a parking space that will allow me to get back on the road and to school 2 in 10 minutes. get 2 children out of car, walk to nursery, wait for doors to open. run back down drive with dd, strap into car, join queue of traffic to drive to second school, (which does not have a nursery) park, walk, wait hilst children go in, drive home. arrive home at 9.25

school run 2, leave at 11.20, drive to school 1, pick up small boy, walk slowly back to car, cajole/wrestle child into car seat, drive home, child out of car persuade child to walk up 2 flights of stairs without screaming, shoes off, coat off.. 12.10 or later. (and that is with no taking him to the shop to buy fruit/veg)

afternoon, shoes/coat on small boy at 2.50, drive to school 2 boy out, etc, wait in playground, walk back to car, ...etc.. put car in garage, get children out, lock up, persuade small boy to walk across car park and up stairs without screaming, let dd in, catch small boy and persuade him to come into flat without screaming. shoes off, coat off at 4.30

just over 3 hours. I was shocked when I worked it out, couldn't think where all my time went.

haven't you posted about him several times before? he is emotionally abusive isnt he?

or maybe i am confusing you with someone else

PS I hope you own a dishwasher, OP. If not, it's time you got one - you have 3 kids, you're entitled (to quote your DH) to one. It also uses less water than if you washed everything by hand. If you use a cold cycle, it doesn't use up that much electricity.

I doubt that many people live 5 mins walk from their nearest school.

Maybe we just have a lot of schools in our town. :)

As for cooking time, I do all of the cooking & washing up in our house, but I don't think it would take me 20 minutes to sort out a frozen pizza. However, I don't know as I never buy them.

I was using a frozen pizza as an example because it doesn't actually involve any work. But I don't think I could serve any meal, clean a table, wash up, dry up and put away the dishes from a meal in under 20 mins.

I didn't do any washing up yesterday so did two days worth today. It took me an hour, and I didn't put any of it away.

I can clear the washing up pretty quickly tbh, but I am quite economical with my use of pans - lots of one-pot meals.

I rarely dry anything - just leave it to drain most of the time, then put it away while I am boiling the kettle or something, so maybe I'm not really counting that time in.

That is the kind of thing they tell you to do on those organised household type websites - see how much you can get done while the kettle is boiling and so on.

I think the thing with it though is that when everyone in a house does that, it stops feeling like work. But when one person is doing it, they start to notice and resent it. So taking a cup from a sitting room to the kitchen sink when you've finished drinking tea from it doesn't really feel like housework, but if you are not only doing that for yourself but for every member of the family, it feels like work. Reading children a bedtime story shouldn't feel like work, but if one parent refuses to ever do it, it sadly starts to feel like work to the other.

And I think perhaps that is what is happening with the OP.

That perhaps makes no sense. I don't mean if you've all had a cup of tea together. I mean if you keep coming in to rooms and finding other people's abandoned cups.

Do you drive? Could you go to the supermarket one evening per week whilst your husband stays at home with the children?

Does he have a debit card? Surely he must. If he does, then why can't you do the shopping using that card?

If he hasn't been shopping for 12 years, does he say you're spending too much? Price of butter's risen in that time.

I think you're spot on Clothes.

at the idea of my household being organised. If only....

I do get what you mean about one person doing everything, nobody likes to feel put upon. And FWIW, I think there is definitely something unbalanced about the OP's relationship.

I also agree that some tasks stop feeling like work if you just fit them in as and when you can, but I think that's partly down to perspective and not just whether everyone chips in. I work FT outside the home and am the main breadwinner, but have had long periods when I have done everything at home as well (at times due to DH's depression and other illness, and also due to long trips away - he has been abroad for the last month.) I simply don't have the time to make a meal out of jobs that can be squeezed into spare moments here and there, and half the time, I don't notice I'm doing them.

I think some of these little jobs start to be perceived as "work" when one partner starts keeping count of what they are doing - either because they feel that their partner is not doing enough, or because they feel that they have to justify their own contributions.

I think it's about the being taken for granted and not necessarily how long each of the chores take. You often hear about wives with rich allowances, no kids and household help walking out because the husbands took them for granted, and people say "why would they be unhappy when they have all that money and no need to work/do chores" it's because they aren't treated with respect. A person can work very very hard and be happy because they are respected and supported, and someone can have less to do but be in a very unhappy and tired place because they are treated unfairly. The sad thing is, if OP were a real servant, so to speak, she'd have a day off and be able to clock off at a certain time. Not only is she not paid here, she doesn't get to clock off - unless she can call the shots and demand better treatment. We can discuss all day about how long it takes to speed to a school run or the fastest way to serve frozen food but it's about respect and being considerate, not about how to wave a household magic wand. ClothesofSand raises a very good point - everyone should clear their own cups and put away their own shoes/clothes. Even my four year old knows how to put away his own cup or snack plate!

Yes, kipper, I agree - it's less about the actual workload and more about feeling unappreciated/not respected.

i think you miss his point tbh.

you are nagging him to do chores after hes come home from work and he doesn't want to. he just wants to relax.

nowhere did he say in your post he expects you to do them instead. he probably thinks you are crazy doing chores all night instead of relaxing.

Also why are there chores that take up every night? i do the everyday ones in an hour or two in the day while looking after a baby and toddler. rarer jobs take no time at all on top of that. So what exactly are you doing.

you need to be less anal about the house in an evening and relax with him.

But what about the dc related jobs - bathing, stories, bedtime, homework for the older ones. Does he just sit in his arse whilst you do all that?

I think this thread has got distracted with the housework issue and is missing the point that your dh is not engaging with family life. Stop doing his washing, ironing and bookkeeping until he stops being a twat.