to think that the soldier who shot dead those people should be handed over to the Afghan government?

[TheRhubarb]

I'm not sure what responses I will get here so let me just run through my thoughts on this.

He shot dead children and beat the women before shooting them too and dragging their bodies to a house, covering them with cushions and sticks and burning them.

If this had happened over here, we would try the murderer according to our own laws.
Even if the murderer had fled back to his own country, we would order his deportation.
Afghanistan have full UK and US support, so what does it say about our faith in their government if the US refuse to release the man into their custody?
Why is it one rule for us and another for them?

Many soldiers will now also die because of this man's act and amongst them might be British soldiers, so he will potentially be responsible for many more deaths yet by revenge acts.

The only way to appease the Afghan people and to show our trust in the government is surely to hand the perpetrator over to them? Only in that way can we hope to prevent revenge attacks.

Is one man's life - a murderers life at that - worth more than those of serving soldiers in the US and UK army?

I'm willing to listen to all opinions on this.

I for one totally agree with you on this, if that had happened here there is no way we wouldn't expect to try the individual in this country according to our laws.

But you know it will never happen, the US will just court marshal him in a military court and the Afghan people will not see justice.

I think legally he is still under the jurisdiction of the USA Government, even though the atrocity happened in Afghanistan. I do agree he should be handed over, but I really don't think it's going to happen.

My heart goes out to the families affected by this tragedy, and for all those British soldiers who are having to help control the mess that has resulted.

It's worrying that the American Army considered this man fit for active duty - how many others are being passed as fit for active duty but are mentally unhinged enough to do something like this? What kind of monster can shoot a child in cold blood?

Would he be tried under UK law? It all depends on the SOFA, and I do not think those should be renegotiated because of one particular crime (the type of which would/should have been foreseen at the time the SOFA was agreed).

I agree. He committed an evil crime. To pick on innocent children is just beyond evil. He is one sick fuck who should be tried in the country he committed the crime.

People on here will bleat on about how the soldiers are damaged by what they witness in war zones, I agree with this. However, what of they are sick, nasty bastards before they sign up to the army?

I agree!
wasnt it soldierS though? I thought there was more than 1?

it feels to me like the lives of Afghan children are mot to be valued as highly as British children

Imagine if this had happened to British children

The punishment for murder in the US is usually the death penalty. However this being a soldier, he won't get the death penalty but will be court marshalled and probably detained under some mental health order.

Yet the murders had a very planned and organised feel to them.

How on earth can we expect to keep up relations with the middle east when we treat them like second class citizens. It's like saying that their loss isn't the same as our loss would be because they are only Afghans.

So now the Taliban are hell bent on revenge, Cameron has just re-affirmed our special cosy relationship with the US and so we are seen, across the Middle East, as being the same as the US. They will not just burn the American flag but ours too. They won't just target their soldiers but ours too.

How arrogant of us and the US to invade a country, try to force it into democracy and then deny them the democratic justice we enjoy.

As far as aware, it was just one-not that that makes it any better. Also from what I heard he does have severe mental health issues plus marital problems, and was on his fourth tour (after 3 in Iraq)

Whilst none of this excuse anything, what I feel it does expose is the lack of care and thought for these men. Why didn't anyone pick this up before it happened?

bejeezus, it was one soldier.
Before that US soldiers burnt copies of the Koran.
Before that they were filmed pissing on the dead bodies of Afghan soldiers.

Just how much more of this do you think will be tolerated by the Afghan people? And why should it? They are being driven into the arms of the Taliban by the grotesque and appauling behaviour of their soldiers which is no different to the brutal regime we are apparently 'saving' them from.

Personally I think we need to pull our soldiers out and fuck America (no offence to Americans) because this incident will cost many lives and I feel queasy watching the way the Afghan people are treated by US troops on the ground.

The base where this soldier is usually based has had many issues regarding the handling of mental health issues, according to the news. The suicide rate at the base is much higher than normal.

On another note, please don't let this thread descend into military-bashing.

WhereMyMilk - Afghan soldiers have seen their families killed, one man came home to find his entire family wiped out by that soldier. Others have been kidnapped from their villages as boys and taught to be soldiers, they either fight or they die. What about their mental health states? Do you think that it's easy for them living in a country that is so volatile and unstable? Where you might get blown up by the Taliban or you might get shot by the US?

I know it's from the mail, but Max Hastings makes a good point:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2114149/Afghan-killings-The-Devil-dwells-possesses-soldier-fearful-behold.html

in that we train these men to kill; put them in hostile situations and still expect them to behave like civilised human beings, especially as he points out where you can be on patrol, talking to someone during the day, and that person tries to kill you by night. It's not 'bleating', it's a fact.

CJ - what if they are NOT sick, nasty bastards before they join up? My db has done his stint in Bastion and is probably going back this year to Kandahar, so I don't want him targeted because of this. However, I can understand the strain they are under - our guys do six months, the US guys do much longer, and can be on a shorter rotation as well.

I don't know.

In principle I agree that if you commit a crime in a country where the penalties for that crime are beyond those that exist in your own country, then you do so in that knowledge and should face those penalties accordingly. In principle.

But in truth countries like Afghanistan have hideous human rights records, even in terms of how their criminals are treated, and while I think on some level that he should be handed over, on others I think that two wrongs don't make a right, iyswim.

However I do agree that he should be tried in the US under common criminal law, as a murderer, rather than court marshalled by the army, and that the harshest possible punishment should be handed down to him, in order to show that his actions will not be tolerated or excused.

For a crime this serious he should be tried under Afghan law.

I don't know what to think. Prehaps handing this man over to the Afgans will save lives. Making a grisly human sacifice of a man who is possibly very ill is questionable.

I seriously doult that the Afgans would give the man a fair trial given the attrocious human rights record of Afganistan in general.

It would be interesting to know what the man in question thinks.

If this was British children then i am pretty sure that exactly the same situation would exist. The US army always ensures that its soldiers are subject only to US laws, and specifically US army regs. If the agreement is not in place then US services personnel will not disembark.

In almost no circumstances that i can think of or conveniently goggle will the US army hand over its soldiers to face local justice.

Can we trust The Afghan justice system though? I read recently that Karzai has agreed (to appease the Taliban) that it will enshrined in to Afghan Law that a husband is entitled to beat his wife.

He is obviously sick. He had signed the death warrant of other soldiers/servicemen/foreigners too.

This isn't military bashing CaveMum, it's pointing out the huge discrepancies between the way we treat our own and the way we treat them. As bejeezus said, if this had happened over here we would be demanding the release of the murderer to UK authorities and would expel Afghan diplomats. In the US they'd probably start another war.

My point is that whilst we are very good at demanding justice for our country and the US for theirs, when it comes to atrocities committed by our people over there, we have a very different set of rules which basically sticks a finger up at the people of that country.

We cannot possibly hope for peace and equality anywhere whilst Afghan people are treated like shit.

Agree with you scary. I think we are expecting miracles if we think no-one is going to be seriously damaged by the dreadful things they see and are expected to take part in. I feel desperately sorry for some of the men who come home and struggle to be 'normal'.

But I also agree with rhubarb that justice demands that this particular soldier should be tried by Afghans. His life and suffering does not outweight that of the victims and their families.

would you care about the strain the poor soldiers were under, if they had done this to your family?

I find it increasingly difficult to differentiate between government approved killing and the work of the 'guerillas'

The man is a murdering terrorist and should be treated like one. Never in a million years would we question the mental health problems of the men blowing up UK and US soldiers.

No I wasn't accusing anyone who has posted so far of military-bashing. I was simply pointing out that all too often these sorts of threads do descend into military-bashing with people passing ridiculous comments/judgements about servicemen and women.