to think that the soldier who shot dead those people should be handed over to the Afghan government?

[TheRhubarb]

I'm not sure what responses I will get here so let me just run through my thoughts on this.

He shot dead children and beat the women before shooting them too and dragging their bodies to a house, covering them with cushions and sticks and burning them.

If this had happened over here, we would try the murderer according to our own laws.
Even if the murderer had fled back to his own country, we would order his deportation.
Afghanistan have full UK and US support, so what does it say about our faith in their government if the US refuse to release the man into their custody?
Why is it one rule for us and another for them?

Many soldiers will now also die because of this man's act and amongst them might be British soldiers, so he will potentially be responsible for many more deaths yet by revenge acts.

The only way to appease the Afghan people and to show our trust in the government is surely to hand the perpetrator over to them? Only in that way can we hope to prevent revenge attacks.

Is one man's life - a murderers life at that - worth more than those of serving soldiers in the US and UK army?

I'm willing to listen to all opinions on this.

Utterly disagree TheRhubarb.

Better that the full facts are investigated and uncovered and reported to the military and respective governments.
Cancelling prearranged Presidential business will not speed or aide that process

No, but going to watch a ballgame? Hours after he released a statement saying he was heartbroken?

Again, I am not saying that the pre-arranged meeting should have been cancelled, I am saying that the ballgame frivolity should have been. Out of respect for the families of those who were killed.
If it had happened here or in the US, such unnecessary outings would have most certainly been cancelled out of respect, so why do our citizens deserve more respect than Afghani citizens?

I was idly pondering this on the school run. I came to the conclusion that no, he shouldn't be handed over to the Afghans because of their human rights record and because I rather think the soldier has to have mental health issues rather than just being evil. He should be detained in a secure mental health institution.

He will be Soupy. There's no doubt about that.

Yet the Afghans and Taliban who blow up troops are deemed to be mentally fit enough to be tortured by US soldiers in Guantanamo Bay. Despite the horrors they have seen in their countries.

If the father whose entire family were wiped out went and shot a load of US soldiers do you think he would be treated civilly? Would he be locked in a mental health institution or would he be water-boarded by troops, accidently die whilst in custody and then be filmed with soldiers pissing over his body?

One law for us, one law for them.

I think those are separate issues TBH. Do you put one man up as scapegoat for the behaviour of the entire US military?

I'd guess the ballgame meant a lot to those involved and to those moved or touched by the President's presence.

Often personal tragedy does not prevent us from carrying out seemingly trivial commitments. I think that carrying on with State duties would be expected for personal and professional heartbreak.

I believe that this massacre will have horribly upset all the military involved and the US Govt. I don't think it is simply a empty platitude.
Very sad

If it had happened here or in the US unnecessary outings would have most certainly been cancelled, because the UK or US citizens would have seen both the massacre and the ballgame on the BBC (CNN).

It is highly unlikely that the Afghani citizens will have seen coverage of the US President and UK PM at a ballgame.

They are unlikely to be aware of the visit, so it is not an issue of respect.

(as an aside - when GWB was told of the 9/11 terrorist attack he finished his visit first, before adddressing the nation - so precedent has been set for continuing previously agreed obligations)

Why do you think Afghan citizens would not be aware of the visit dallas?

do you think it is ok to be disrespectful then, if you can keep it hidden from the person or people you are disrespecting?

Anything GWB did is irrelevant, he is the epitomy of insensitivity, disrespect and idiocy. I would hope BO doesnt use him as a benchmark

I agree with you.

Last time I looked (and I know this is picky) DC was PM of the UK, not just England, so the Brits will be hated more, not just the English.

Obama also has to play to a domestic audience, who will be voting for him; the Afghanistanis don't have a vote.

I am well aware of how tense the situation in the Middle East is from where my dh my so it is a frequent topic of conversation. I guess this would push other things down the agenda somewhat though
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9142688/US-tells-Russia-to-warn-Iran-of-last-chance.html

Yes it is picky scaryteacher but tbh, in Europe they have a lot more time for the Welsh and Scottish because England is seen as a separate nation. Because most of our Welsh and Scottish cousins can't stand the English, they are viewed with less contempt.

Who says that the Afghan people don't have televisions? Do you not think that the Afghan media would not be all over the story? Do you think they all live in mud huts in the desert? Some remote villages might but the Afghan media were quick to report on the massacre and call for justice.

As a sign of respect for the entire country, the ballgame should have been cancelled. It was not vital to the visit and would have meant more to the Afghanistan government and people if it were reported that the PM and President cancelled that visit than it would have done to the US people or players there at that time.

I'm afraid it all shows up as a lack of real respect for real Afghan civilians.

Last time I looked (and I know this is picky) DC was PM of the UK, not just England, so the Brits will be hated more, not just the English.

like you said scary, this is picky
what point are you making? are you suggesting that rhubarb doesnt realise that DC is PM of the UK?

we'll just have to disagree then I suppose

Is he? I didn't realise!

I knew what I was doing when I said "My gripe is not about the fact that they are showing off their 'special' relationship to stick one finger up at the Europeans and therefore make the English even more hated than they already are."

It's a plain fact that the English are generally not very well thought of in Europe right now. The Welsh, Scottish and Irish are viewed differently.

Sorry, just in case, that's the N.Irish.

don't forget norn iron when discussing the uk

Got there before ya!

'Yes it is picky scaryteacher but tbh, in Europe they have a lot more time for the Welsh and Scottish because England is seen as a separate nation.'

Absolute bollocks; I have lived in Europe (20 minutes from the EU) for the past 5.5 years, and I have seen no evidence at all that the English are not well thought of. Neither has my dh who works with 26 other nationalities in large multinational HQs on a daily basis, travels extensively in Europe, and has done so for the past 8 years.

Furthermore, we are not viewed as the 'English' but as the British. There is no diplomatic separation; it is the UK Representative to the EU and the same to NATO. It is the British Ambassador to Belgium, notan English one. Indeed, one of the Ambassadors employed by the FCO and posted here is a Scot, representing the UK.

No, bejeezus, I was not insinuating that she didn't know this, but that she was inaccurate, as to talk about the English in such a context is incorrect. HM Forces who are fighting in Afghanistan aren't all English, so by logic, all constituent parts of the UK should be equally disliked, as per Rhubarbs theory.

I find MN in general really balanced, with a very diverse representation of opinions
except threads that discuss military issues; it seems to me that opinions that do not whole heartedly and unequivocally support the UK/US military operations are abhorrent and to be patronised.

I have family and friends who have been refugees (both displaced with in their own countries and externally). 'Seeing the whole picture' to the extent that you dehumanise the citizens of the countries you are occupying is a priviledged luxury. It is, as you have already said, a strategy used to be able enter into combat

I do not doubt that serving personnel believe that the nationals do and will benefit from intervention..and maybe they do and will. But it does not mean they will accept atrocities like this, any more than you or I

You really are on a roll today aren't you? Picking on the minor points because you have no real argument to make, you just want a fight.

I too have lived in Europe and my experiences are different to yours.
They have Celtic bars in France and they just love adopting the Scottish music and dance.

But this isn't about that. I made my comment about the way Europe sees the UK - not about what races the soldiers are. That is taking my comment way out of context and you know it. My comment was about the attitude that getting one up on the Europeans comes before respecting the feelings of the Middle East.

Scotland and Wales are devolved nations, we are not. The Europeans are not that ignorant that they don't know what that means. They know full well that the decisions taken by Parliament are not an indication of how the Welsh and Scottish Assemblies feel. Therefore Europe has a lot of sympathy with the Welsh and Scottish devolution and that was the point I was making.

I was NOT making a point about how we, as a nation, are viewed in the Middle East. My example clearly points to European views.

Now do you want to talk about this Afghanistan issue or do you wish to de-rail it further onto something else?

IME people do differentiate between English/ Welsh/Scottish and Irish
I dont move in military circles though

They certainly do in Europe bejeezus.

I wasn't talking about the military and scaryteacher knows that.

Can I just say that the Taliban are NOT popular in Afghanistan. First, everyone remembers what they did last time they came to power, and second, the majority of civilians killed in Afghanistan are actually killed by the Taliban, not foreign forces (something you don't really see pointed out in the media).

There are a lot of complex reasons why people might support or not go against the Taliban, however. Some people do actively support them because they agree with their ideology or benefit highly by being associated with them. Many more people go along with them because they are coerced or afraid. Some support them because the Taliban protect the opium industry, which is the only means of support for thousands of people. Also, in many rural areas the Taliban are the only mechanism for getting justice, because the government is too corrupt and too weak to provide any.

This massacre might lead some people to join or support the Taliban. But many people have also had family members killed by the Taliban, so that's not an attractive option either.

In a way, this event is much more shocking for us in the West, who like to think we don't do these things, than it is for Afghans, who have seen this kind of thing happen all the time for years.

One law for us, one law for them.

Rhubarb you've hit the nail on the head.

We should never have got involved. How can there ever be a happy ending to a war, when death is involved? Someone mentioned G bay? Why do we happily ignore the fact that the US can chuck someone in there, without trial, and torture them?

Why do we think we are so frickin special?

Because we have more money than these people?

Because we have whiter skin than these people?

Because we can invade a country, killing its civillians?
Because we think we have the right to go over and invade any country that takes our fancy? AND then moan about immigrants coming over here whose country we have f*cked up.
Have you ever heard of the 'uncomfortable truth'.

We do all of this because we can.

And we call ourselves civilised

Who says that the Afghan people don't have televisions? Do you not think that the Afghan media would not be all over the story? Do you think they all live in mud huts in the desert? Some remote villages might but the Afghan media were quick to report on the massacre and call for justice

In the area where the massacre took place the local Afghani people are unlikely to have TV and are unlikely to have seen the coverage of the President of the US and PM of UK at a Basketball Game.

Anything GWB did is irrelevant, he is the epitomy of insensitivity, disrespect and idiocy. I would hope BO doesnt use him as a benchmark

The fact it was GWB is irrelevent. When US Citizens were killed on US soil during a terrorist attack the visit that was happening at the same time was not cancelled. The precedent was set for activities to continue as normal whilst acknowledging the atrocity.

In a way, this event is much more shocking for us in the West, who like to think we don't do these things, than it is for Afghans, who have seen this kind of thing happen all the time for years.

with respect, this is bollocks
'all my children have been massacred, of course by the time the 7th was killed, it wasnt so upsetting anymore. You get used to it'????

because the Taliban kill more children, its ok that we kill some?