to think that the soldier who shot dead those people should be handed over to the Afghan government?

[TheRhubarb]

I'm not sure what responses I will get here so let me just run through my thoughts on this.

He shot dead children and beat the women before shooting them too and dragging their bodies to a house, covering them with cushions and sticks and burning them.

If this had happened over here, we would try the murderer according to our own laws.
Even if the murderer had fled back to his own country, we would order his deportation.
Afghanistan have full UK and US support, so what does it say about our faith in their government if the US refuse to release the man into their custody?
Why is it one rule for us and another for them?

Many soldiers will now also die because of this man's act and amongst them might be British soldiers, so he will potentially be responsible for many more deaths yet by revenge acts.

The only way to appease the Afghan people and to show our trust in the government is surely to hand the perpetrator over to them? Only in that way can we hope to prevent revenge attacks.

Is one man's life - a murderers life at that - worth more than those of serving soldiers in the US and UK army?

I'm willing to listen to all opinions on this.

No it's not scaryteacher, but then neither is walking into peoples houses, beating women senseless, shooting children in the head and then burning the bodies.

Yes the Taliban will gain ground in Afghanistan once we pull out and the way the US is behaving is merely paving the way for them. Did you see the interview with one of the villagers? He said that he was ready to join forces with the Taliban even though he didn't agree with them, just to exact revenge on the American forces responsible for the massacre of his neighbours.

They way they see it, the US has hidden that soldier. He has not been named. They probably won't ever get to hear what happened to him. They feel forgotten and worthless. So they might as well join the Taliban in defeating these people who burn their sacred texts, urinate on their dead soldiers and kill their civilians in cold blood.

Freudian, there is something inherently wrong with the US army. The British are not innocence of atrocities but never on this scale and it is very rare that you see British soldiers caught up in anything like this. They certainly have not learnt from Vietnam and probably never will. They treated those people like animals too

ffs where did i say it was ok

i said this is what happens in wars, always has and always will. this is what happens when we train young man and women against an enemy what are we to expect it is not about taking the moral high ground it is about others are responsible for this too our governments not just this man

i agree Rhubarb there is something very scary about the way the americans train their troops, but we are not entirely innocent, we are aware of their training, we are aware of their beleifs but we still go to war with them so our government is also responsible

The thing with the US military is that they do tend to recruit from deprived areas and therefore, by default, many of their recruits are not as educated.

They are also not taught to think "outside the box". DH is RAF and from his dealings with US military he said they are very literal when it comes to orders and independent thought seems to be discouraged amongst the rank and file.

so, are an education and 'thinking outside the box' important factors in preventing mental health problems/ slaughtering children/ pissing on dead soldiers/raping women?

Much the same as the military I expect Bejeezus, depending if you are in an area where there is a military presence. I also think that not being able to leave, living in enemy territory and never being able to let your guard down, takes its toll mentally on both the military there and the civilians.

However, this discussion was about the military and what would happen to this soldier. I think he will kill himself, or it will look as if he has done so.

FS yes I agree that the government also need to take full responsibility which is why they should ensure that the trial is a public trial held in Afghanistan. So that the people can see justice being dealt with their own eyes.

We also need to rip up this fucking 'special' relationship (sorry, bit of puke always comes up when I say that) and distance ourselves from them when it comes to the Middle East. Because the US are getting very good at making enemies.

bejeezus, good point. I said to dh last night that I hope to goodness they don't try to use 'mental health issues' in order to distract what this man has done. Not everyone with mental health issues murders people in cold blood, not everyone with a limited education does either, not every working class person is capable of such vile crimes.

Cavemum, I would agree with your last para. I have worked with the US Mil and they are much quicker (IMO) to act unquestioningly to orders. They also get told less about the 'bigger picture' - they get their orders without the reasons for them.

A British soldiers orders ALWAYS end with "in order to..." explaining why they have to do it, and what result is expected.

To a man, every US Officer I have met and worked with has been very 'gung ho'. I admire some of their qualities and traditions, but would choose British Mil training and discipline over US every time.

Much the same as the military I expect Bejeezus

except that is their home, their places of work, their schools, entire families, friends, they are largely poor, with no/poor health care, no social security, no/skeleton infrastructure. they dont get to fly away after a tour. Not really the same.

If a Afghan civilian attacked and killed 7 (was it 7?) US soldiers, soldiers not children--what would happen to him? would he be protected, because of the mental strain that the war was having on him? Would he fuck

'so, are an education and 'thinking outside the box' important factors in preventing mental health problems/ slaughtering children/ pissing on dead soldiers/raping women' In many cases yes. If you are recruited by the US military from one of the sink areas controlled by gangs in the US, then murder and rape may be what you grew up with, so this is no different. Same shit, different place effectively to some. It's what you've been conditioned to since birth; the only difference being that the weapon is now govt issue and you get three square meals a day.

so, thinking 'inside the box'= raping/slaughtering/pissing?

bejeezus - I don't think the Afghans would give your civilian killer up, so the question wouldn't arise.

I would also argue that many in the US military are largely poor (many of the lower ranks get govt benefits as their pay isn't much) and when they leave the military they have not a lot of health care, and perhaps difficulty in getting a job. As for flying away after a tour, that could well be in a body bag. It's not a bloody holiday; the troops don't fly away with fond memories promising to send postcards. Many are permanently affected by what they have seen and done, as are the civilians.

Unfortunately if you are indoctorinated into a gang that sees women as second class citizens and there for your pleasure. If they are known as 'bitches' to all concerned and passed around from gang member to gang member then yes, that is 'inside the box'

Apparently, according to someone I know in the us army, he's being tried by death penalty. Apparently.

they are either doing it, according to you because they either have MH issues or they are uneductaed.....I can swallow the MH reasoning, but;

education does not make a person less violent

education does not make a person less prone to mental health issues

people who come from deprived areas are not conditioned to rape/slaughter/piss on people from birth

UK poor is not comparable with Afghan poor

we have NHS and social security

our neighbourhood and infrastructure havent been bombed to oblivion

Bejeezus, read what I said about where some of the recruits come from. If that's what you've seen every day, then why would raping and slaughtering seem strange? I've met some US military personnel, and some aren't the sharpest pencils in the box by any means.

scaryteacher you appear to be military bashing yourself.....US soldiers are largely violent thugs who are incapable of not committing crime??

Is it just UK military you dont want people to bash?

There have been incidents whereby US and UK soldiers have been shot by the soldiers they were training. Does anyone know what happened to those soldiers. I can't find the cases online now, it's all about what happened in Afghanistan with various theories about the nameless man who committed the crimes. I would be interested to know if they caught anyone killing troops and what happened to them?

Gang culture and violent crime is a really serious problem in deprived areas

But, by no means, are most people from deprived areas involved in it

We are not talking about UK personnel Bejeezus, but US personnel. Big difference, especially in where they come from in some cases, their level of education, and their mental health. As LED says in some cases rape/slaughter/pissing on people is 'inside the box'.

Bejeesus, Scary said "some" not "most". Please don't put words in her mouth

I'm not military bashing at all Bejeezus - just stating how some US recruits are. Some US soldiers are violent thugs yes, as are some UK ones no doubt.

Gang culture and violent crime is a bit more than a serious problem imo; and I don't think the level we see in the UK is comparable to that which exists in areas of the US.

Not sure if it's true, but I heard on the news the soldier in question had previously been shot in the head. So there's a possibility this could have been linked to head injuries I suppose. Though if so, that poses a lot of questions about him still being out there and having access to weapons of course...

There are all sorts of reports flying around MyName. Course if they can find an excuse, such as mental health, they will use it.

And people wonder why mental health gets such a bad press

I see that Afghan soldiers who have witnessed their families slaughtered, who have been beaten themselves, don't have the luxury of pleading mental health when they are caught trying to blow up the army or shoot soldiers.

It works both ways. Or not as the case may be.

Gotta go and do school run now plus other jobs but would still be interested to know what happened to Afghan Taliban soldiers who have been caught by the US army. Esp those who have killed troops.