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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the soldier who shot dead those people should be handed over to the Afghan government?

223 replies

TheRhubarb · 13/03/2012 12:56

I'm not sure what responses I will get here so let me just run through my thoughts on this.

He shot dead children and beat the women before shooting them too and dragging their bodies to a house, covering them with cushions and sticks and burning them.

If this had happened over here, we would try the murderer according to our own laws.
Even if the murderer had fled back to his own country, we would order his deportation.
Afghanistan have full UK and US support, so what does it say about our faith in their government if the US refuse to release the man into their custody?
Why is it one rule for us and another for them?

Many soldiers will now also die because of this man's act and amongst them might be British soldiers, so he will potentially be responsible for many more deaths yet by revenge acts.

The only way to appease the Afghan people and to show our trust in the government is surely to hand the perpetrator over to them? Only in that way can we hope to prevent revenge attacks.

Is one man's life - a murderers life at that - worth more than those of serving soldiers in the US and UK army?

I'm willing to listen to all opinions on this.

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TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 13:40

dreamingbohemian that is all very true. However don't forget that the Taliban also know how to play the 'hearts and minds' game and will use this to convince the Afghan people that they are fighting on their side. Plus when you couple it with recent images of soldiers pissing on dead bodies and burning the Koran you can see why they might turn to the Taliban - who are their own people, rather than foreigners who so disrespect their culture, religion and civilians.

The Taliban still have a powerful hold over Afghanistan even after all these years and that's not because they weren't popular with the people. Some say that the Taliban are better than the government because they enforce strict laws and protect businesses. It is impossible to determine exactly how popular the Taliban are but this recent atrocity will certainly help to bolster the support they get.

As far as the Afghan people are concerned, it's either a strict rule with the Taliban or a weak government who will eventually be overthrown by them anyway. They know if they support the Taliban, then the Taliban will keep them safe, whereas if they don't then who will? They have very little choice.

musicismylife - exactly.

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dreamingbohemian · 14/03/2012 13:42

Bejeezus, you completely misinterpret my meaning (sorry if I wasn't clear).

The death of ANY family member will of course be horrific and shocking to ANYONE.

My point is that this massacre is all over the news and everyone is talking about it in the West as if it were some isolated event. But Afghan civilians are being slaughtered every day, by all sides to the conflict.

Of course they are horrified that this happened. But they have come to expect these things to happen, which is the worst part.

Apparently they did not resist the gunman because they thought it was just another night raid. Do people in the US/UK even know about the night raids we inflict upon Afghans?

Again, sorry if I was not clear in my words.

TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 13:43

bejeezus - spot on. How can anyone become used to seeing bodies of women and children massacred? When the IRA were blowing up policemen and soldiers did we appear less shocked each time? "Oh it's just another dead policeman, I've seen 5 already this week." No of course we didn't. I don't think that you could ever get used to slaughter.

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TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 13:47

Yes dreaming, we do. They didn't put up a fight because they thought their homes were being raided for Taliban insurgents or weapons. They also didn't put up a fight because he was dressed in Afghan clothing and wearing night goggles, so they didn't stand a chance of doing anything before they were gunned down.

It is not an isolated event and we know that. What is so shocking to us is that the soldier who did this will not face Afghan justice.
That the PM and President chose to eat hot dogs and watch a game the day after the slaughter when the victims were being buried (is that ok scaryteacher?).
That the US thinks it is acceptable to torture terrorist victims in Guantanamo Bay but they won't hand the murderer over to the Afghan people because of their human rights record?

The way it has now been brushed under the carpet is shocking.

Surely enough is enough?

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LtEveDallas · 14/03/2012 13:49

I don't think that you could ever get used to slaughter

...and yet there wasn't a thread on here last week when 6 British Soldiers were killed in one blast.

dreamingbohemian · 14/03/2012 13:51

But Rhubarb, you need to distinguish among the different Afghan communities. The Tajiks and Uzbeks in Afghanistan will actually prefer foreign forces to the (Pushtun) Taliban, against whom they fought a war for many years, and whose victory would push them out of power (and money).

I agree that Afghans have very few choices.

I honestly do not think the Taliban are 'popular' to any great extent, people are just being realistic about what they have to do to survive.

If the Taliban were truly doing hearts and minds, they would not kill so many civilians. I'd say it's more that they are very clever in their use of coercion, corruption, extortion and protection.

scaryteacher · 14/03/2012 13:53

I'm not picking on minor points - you are asserting that the English are reviled in Europe - they aren't. You say, 'it's a plain fact'; it isn't. I have never been reviled/ abused/ had a go at because I am a Brit, let alone because I am English. Neither has my husband or my ds.

You didn't make your comment about how Europe sees the UK at all, you said the English, not the UK. It is not true that the Europeans differentiate between the Brits; they would never get any business done if they did. I also fail to see how you can possible speak for the entire continent of Europe, as there are so many differing countries there.

As to HM Forces in Afghanistan; they are not all soldiers, and this is not picky. There are members of all three services out there, and just as the Army as not sailors, the RN and RAF are NOT soldiers. It is correct to talk about HM Forces, or the UK/Brit military. It is factually incorrect to refer to them all as soldiers.

You also say that most of the Welsh and Scottish can't stand the English...again, I haven't noticed, many of my friends are Welsh and Scottish, so you are generalising to the nth degree. Yes, the Scots and the Welsh have devolved government, but so do Flanders and Wallonia. In the end it is what the national parliament decides that is important, in European terms.

The only reason that the EU (as opposed to the whole continent of Europe) has a problem with the Brits is that we now have a slightly more Eurosceptic PM, we don't roll over to have our tummies tickled when Barrosso and van Rompuy click their fingers.

I think that balancing the various diplomatic topics for PMs and Presidents must be a nightmare frankly; as well as satisfying your domestic voters.

I'm not after a fight - but I do get really irritated with you throwing out generalisations about things when you do not back it up with evidence, and when you fail to take into account the other factors in play that go on behind the scenes.

You can be as indignant as you like about the fact that the US soldier isn't being turned over to the Afghan justice system; it won't change the fact that he is there under a SOFA, and US military law. You said you were open to all views, evidently not.

Bejeezus, I do not always whole heartedly support UK military action; I had my doubts about Libya; however I do support those sent to fight as my db has been and will deployed again to Afghanistan.

I am not your child incidentally, and I doubt you are old enough to be my Mum, so stop the tone at the end. It does you no favours.

scaryteacher · 14/03/2012 13:53

Sorry! last sentence to Rhubarb, not Bejeezus!

dreamingbohemian · 14/03/2012 13:54

Very good point, LtEve

bejeezus · 14/03/2012 13:55

Dallas dont try to minimise what the Afghan civilians suffer, by talking about military loss of life. You are demonstrating the dehumanisation right there. In terms of magnitude, how do you think they compare?

Do you have a point to make about the dead soldiers? Why didnt you start a thread, if you want to say something about that incident

scaryteacher · 14/03/2012 13:57

Exactly Eve, and not a lot about the US soldiers murdered in Kabul by an Afghani either.

bejeezus · 14/03/2012 13:57

I am not your child incidentally, and I doubt you are old enough to be my Mum, so stop the tone at the end. It does you no favours

eh?

bejeezus · 14/03/2012 13:58

oh
x posted

scaryteacher · 14/03/2012 13:59

How is Eve dehumanising anything? Forces personnel are still people, as are the civilians, or according to you, does serving in the military stop you being human?

TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 14:01

scaryteacher, are you always so smug and patronising? I do not think I have to patronise you further by stating how the English - not the Scottish, Welsh or Irish, are viewed by the European Union.

I do not also have to give you a history lesson on the conflicts between Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales or the reasons why Scotland and Wales wanted devolution and why the Scottish Assembly wants a referendum on independance. I have Scottish, Irish and Welsh friends too, that has nothing to do with it apart from providing some personal anecdotes.

Dallas, there have been plenty of threads on Mumsnet about soldiers in Afghanistan. This thread is about the cold bloodied slaughter of civilians who were dragged from their beds in the early hours of the morning.

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bejeezus · 14/03/2012 14:04

no..and you know that is not what i meant

dallas is effectively trying sweeping aside the conversation about dead Afghanis and trying to replace it with a conversation about dead Servicemen

as if they cancel each other out. Or, it is wrong to shocked and horrified by the Afghanis children being killed because servicemen are also killed, and they should take precedence

If dallas has something to say about it, like I said-say it, or start a thread....

LtEveDallas · 14/03/2012 14:04

bejeezus. You just dont want to listen to a POV that differs from your own. I was (quite obviously I thought) pointing out that dreamingbohemian was correct, that people DO get desensitsed to deaths in Afghan - mil or civ. If they didn't, if Rhubarb felt as badly about ALL deaths, then she may have started one.

TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 14:05

scaryteacher again I should not have to tell you that by serving in countries such as Afghanistan or Iraq you know the risks you are taking. Whilst every effort is made to minimise such risks, as a soldier you know full well that the risks are there are you are prepared to take them.

That does not mean that casualties are any less tragic and every single soldier killed is given media coverage and a full state burial with all the respect and dignity they deserve.

This thread is about civilians killed by a soldier. I do not see your comparisons or the inference that by starting a thread about that incident I am somehow forgetting the huge loss of life sustained elsewhere. Feel free to start threads on those separate incidents.

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TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 14:07

I may have started what? Are you honestly saying that I should not have started this thread because one was not started about the 6 soldiers blown up by a bomb a few days ago? (and I find it hard to believe that there was not a thread on that)

If someone is killed on my street, should I not start a thread about it because someone is killed every day?

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LtEveDallas · 14/03/2012 14:08

This thread is about the cold bloodied slaughter of civilians who were dragged from their beds in the early hours of the morning

Yes and that is shocking. However I find equally it shocking that 6 soldiers were killed and essentially vapourised by the size and force of the planted IED.

Plus ^^ my reason for posting as above.

bejeezus · 14/03/2012 14:12

very convoluted dallas but no you weren't

rhubarb cant possibly start a thread about every death that occurs in the world can she?

I listen to PoV different to my own all the time...do you think my PoV is popular? In the majority? No its not. But I will state it and defend it. Because I dont 'come round' to your way of thinking, you think I'm not listening to you? I hear you loud and clear

TheRhubarb · 14/03/2012 14:12

I'm sorry, you obviously have a problem with my starting this thread at all, can you tell me why as I'm afraid you've lost me there with your reasoning?

Because 6 soldiers were killed and not enough outrage expressed on Mumsnet I should not have started this?

Or because I have started this I am therefore less sympathetic towards UK and US soldiers killed?

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dreamingbohemian · 14/03/2012 14:18

I don't think LtEve is saying this thread should not have been started.

I thought she was addressing the OP's specific point that during the IRA campaign people continued to find the deaths of policeman shocking, and comparing that to the reaction here to the deaths of UK servicemen in Afghanistan.

I think we can all agree that all deaths in Afghanistan are a tragedy.

LtEveDallas · 14/03/2012 14:18

God, am I talking Farsi again? Smile

In her post DB said In a way, this event is much more shocking for us in the West, who like to think we don't do these things, than it is for Afghans, who have seen this kind of thing happen all the time for years.

bejeesus said that was bollocks.

You said bejeezus - spot on. How can anyone become used to seeing bodies of women and children massacred? When the IRA were blowing up policemen and soldiers did we appear less shocked each time? "Oh it's just another dead policeman, I've seen 5 already this week." No of course we didn't. I don't think that you could ever get used to slaughter

What I was trying to say was that I agreed with DB.

Think about it, you didn't start a thread about murdered British Soldiers, because you didn't feel as strongly about them as the murdered Afghani civilians. It wasn't as shocking to you. Therefore, maybe you are used to the slaughter of the military.

It is in no way detracting the essence of this thread. What has happened is shocking, is horrible - but it probably feels more so to us westerners hearing about it for the first time that to the Afghani people who have known persecution and murder all their lives.

scaryteacher · 14/03/2012 14:19

How kind of you to give me permission to feel free to start a thread!

I haven't been smug and patronising yet - would you like me to start?

The Brits are viewed by the EU as a stumbling block to further integration because we don't want to roll over and play their game, and quite right that we question what's going on, given the ineptitude of the Eurocrats. As it's the UKREP to the EU, and not the individual nations, it matters not, it is UK policy being upheld, not an solely English one.

I don't need a history lesson thanks, I've studied it comprehensively.

No, HM Forces personnel (not all are soldiers, there are 3 Armed Services in Afghanistan), are not given state burials; that's for Heads of State and the Royal Family. They have, if their families want it, a military funeral. They all have to complete a form with their wishes for their funeral before they deploy.

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