to think that the soldier who shot dead those people should be handed over to the Afghan government?

[TheRhubarb]

I'm not sure what responses I will get here so let me just run through my thoughts on this.

He shot dead children and beat the women before shooting them too and dragging their bodies to a house, covering them with cushions and sticks and burning them.

If this had happened over here, we would try the murderer according to our own laws.
Even if the murderer had fled back to his own country, we would order his deportation.
Afghanistan have full UK and US support, so what does it say about our faith in their government if the US refuse to release the man into their custody?
Why is it one rule for us and another for them?

Many soldiers will now also die because of this man's act and amongst them might be British soldiers, so he will potentially be responsible for many more deaths yet by revenge acts.

The only way to appease the Afghan people and to show our trust in the government is surely to hand the perpetrator over to them? Only in that way can we hope to prevent revenge attacks.

Is one man's life - a murderers life at that - worth more than those of serving soldiers in the US and UK army?

I'm willing to listen to all opinions on this.

Rhubarb, I cannot comment on the stories you mean, because I don't know the answer, but I can give you an anecdote from a similar situation in Iraq. A policeman, trained by British Soldiers, killed a number of them in an unprovoked attack.

During the attack that Policeman was seriously wounded.

British Medics patched him up and saved his life. When he was fit he was returned to the Iraqi 'system' for justice - we understood he was to stand trial.

He was shot in the head shortly after his arrival at the jail. His family then applied to the Brit contingent for cash to be able to bury him, as it was the Brits fault he was dead. We paid up

Until we know exactly what happened, we should not speculate. We've only got very confused stories and random hearsay at the moment. It is too early to second guess what needs to happen in terms of justice.

All we can do is condemn the action for the time being, until there has been a proper investigation.

fuckwits on CNN still calling the "incident" an "alleged" massacre

Totally agree with you OP. I don't want others to suffer because of the actions of a rogue soldier.He should be handed over.

I believe that captured Talibs are handed to the Afghan government (who are responsible for the criminal justice system for all Afghans in Afghanistan). There was even talk of returning Talibs imprisoned in Guantanamo to the Afghan authorities, but I can'r recall if that ever actually happened.

The problem is that all military personnel in Afghanistan have been put in a really untenable position.

On the one hand, they are soldiers, and have been indoctrinated in ways that allow them to demonise the enemy so that they can kill them and maintain a sense of morality.

On the other hand, in Afghanistan they are conducting a counterinsurgency mission, which requires them to help the Afghan people and try to get their support for the government. But some Afghans support or fight for the enemy, either by choice or because of coercion. So the soldiers can never really trust anyone, and feel a constant sense of betrayal that the people they are 'trying to help' would turn around and try to kill them.

All this means that there is an incredible sense of hostility and demonisation even of Afghan civilians, on the part of many (not all) soldiers in the field. I think this really encourages terrible acts like this massacre, the corpse defilements, etc.

I am not in any way trying to excuse their actions.

But I think there will just be more and more of these incidents until we leave.

I would personally love to see this guy turned over to the Afghans but it will never happen.

YABU. There are rules about how war crimes are tried and punished and we should adhere to them. The Taliban and their supporters need no excuse to commit atrocities. 'Handing him over' won't stop others being killed.

I think it's also a really good point that we never talk about the mental health of the Afghan people.

Their country has literally been at war for more than 30 years. Millions of people have died or lived out their lives as refugees. Yet we expect them to absorb, year after year, the death of their loved ones without resorting to violence or anger or revenge.

i very much doubt there will be anything close to resembling a proper investigation. from either side.

I'd be really interested to hear the social background of the soldier that did it. I think it makes it easier to stomach, to say that some soldiers behave this way because they are from deprived areas in the US, gang culture and violence is entrenched in them, they were raised to rape and murder.....it removes 'them' from 'us'

Truth is, most rapes and murders aren't commited by 'them' at all.

I agree but it will never happen. It would set a dangerous precedent so I can't see the powers that be risking it being the tip of the iceberg

It's not a war crime though is it cog?

It's not a war crime, for US is not at war; it is assisting the Afghan Govt in maintaining security in that country, and training Afghan personnel to take on the role fully.

CES is correct to the extent that the procedures for handling criminal justice issues when the accused is a member of the visiting forces is laid down by a binding international agreement.

As it was in force at the time of the crime, it has to be followed.

The US is not at war with the Afghan government. It is, of course, engaged in military operations against non-state actors inside Afghanistan and is subject to, at the very least, the customary laws of war that require military combatants to distinguish between combatants and civilians.

You can argue the legalities for many issues with respect to Afghanistan, but not for distinction.

How insensitive is it that Cameron and Obama are watching a 'ball game' whilst tensions in Afghanistan are at their highest? Are those the actions of a President supposedly 'heartbroken' over the killings?

There is still no word on the soldier or what will happen to him. Those villagers on the ground may never know if justice was delivered or not. The US have not got a clue when it comes to easing tensions. They should not be discussing this with the Afghan government alone, they should get the villagers together and make a full apology along with a promise that justice will be done and that they will be kept informed about what happens to the killer of their neighbours and families.

Of course this won't happen because those civilians, those people most affected by all this and those people most likely to turn to the Taliban for help are largely ignored and not seen as important. The only people listening to them right now is the Taliban, so can we blame them for supporting them? Can we blame them for planting their roadside bombs when they have seen their own neighbours and families slaughtered by these foreign soldiers?

So much is talked of about how this affects our soldiers. Nobody talks about why the Taliban is so popular because the truth is that those civilians are treated like dogs. They are left to bury their dead on their own. No public funerals, no media outcry, no counselling, no public sympathy. And when they turn around and kill soldiers, we are aghast and wonder why.

Whilst Cameron and Obama watch a 'ball game'. It makes me feel sick to my stomach.

TheRhubarb

Where are you getting your 'facts'??

There are 33 states in the US that still have the death penalty. Murder alone is only subject to the death penalty in a handful of those states, and usually an aggravating factor is required to sentence someone to the death penalty. For this reason, very very few prolific murderers (serial killers and the like) are sentenced to death and most inhabitants of death row are there for something like shooing a weapon during a robbery resulting in death.

The amount of black people on death row is virtually equal to the amount of white people (42 v 43 percent). The amount of black people executed is vastly lower than white at 56 v 34 percent.

Aside from that, the soldier is bound by military law, which takes precedent, rightly or wrongly.

completely agree rhubarb If I was one of those villagers, I would like to see Obama and Cameron blown into tiny pieces, smug insensitive bastards

Death row inmates by race: Black 42% Hispanic 12% Other 2% White 43%

You missed out the Hispanic inmates.
98% of the chief district attourneys in the death penalty states are white.
Those who killed white people were 3 times more likely to be executed than those who killed blacks and 4 times more likely than those who killed Latinos.

So by those facts, if this soldier was white, he is not likely to face execution.

Not that I am in favour of the death penalty, I am fully against it. But I doubt he will get what he deserves. They will play the mental health card (cause everyone with mental health problems goes out shooting kids and beating women to death don't they? ) and the guy will spend his days in a mental health institution for ex-officers.

They are in Ohio because it is a swing state for the elections, and it does Obama good to be seen there. He has taken Cameron along because for diplomatic purposes it looks good for DC to be seen to be the first foreign leader invited to travel on Airforce One, and Obama is sending a message to Sarkozy and the other Europeans that there is still a strong relationship with the UK.

This is high level politics and diplomacy, and Afghanistan is only one part of what will coming across Obama's desk each day, and DCs for that.

Secondly, you don't know what is happening on the ground in Afghanistan because the US wouldn't make it public. Panetta has gone there so presumably the right things will be said, and financial recompense made.

Thirdly, the guy who did this was a Sergeant according to the press, so he won't be in an ex-Officers mental health institution, as he isn't an Officer. As I said yesterday, he will either commit suicide, or it will be made to appear that he has done so.

This is high level politics and diplomacy, and Afghanistan is only one part of what will coming across Obama's desk each day, and DCs for that

of course, but from an Afghans PoV.....

There is a reciprocal arrangement that any soldier that commits a crime is dealt with by his own legal system - so if it were a British soldier they would be tried under British law, likewise an Afghan soldier would be tried under Afghani law.

I think that the normal rules governing the US military should apply.
I can see nothing that should change this situation.

I think it is a dreadful situation for everyone involved.

scaryteacher, I am aware that the meeting was pre-arranged. My gripe is not about the fact that they are showing off their 'special' relationship to stick one finger up at the Europeans and therefore make the English even more hated than they already are. My gripe is that the ball game event could and should have been cancelled.

The situation in the Middle East is very tense. 16 civilians have just been slaughtered in the most horrific way by a US sergeant. What message are we sending out to the Middle East about how we treat civilian deaths? Don't forget, these are the countries who are in a nuclear arms battle, who already hate the West and who are responsible for the deaths of many of the UK and US army. This is apparently the hotbed of terrorism. But hey, if Obama and Cameron think that sending a message of solidarity to European is more important than saving soldiers lives or easing Middle East tension then who am I to argue?

Like I said, I hope they enjoyed their ballgame, it at least distracted Obama from his heartbreak. Poor man.

Being totally cynical here Bejeezus; but the Afghanis don't have a vote in the US.

exactly scary but like rhubarb said, it should hardly come as a suprise to anyone that the Taliban and 'terrorist' groups receive support