to think that the soldier who shot dead those people should be handed over to the Afghan government?

[TheRhubarb]

I'm not sure what responses I will get here so let me just run through my thoughts on this.

He shot dead children and beat the women before shooting them too and dragging their bodies to a house, covering them with cushions and sticks and burning them.

If this had happened over here, we would try the murderer according to our own laws.
Even if the murderer had fled back to his own country, we would order his deportation.
Afghanistan have full UK and US support, so what does it say about our faith in their government if the US refuse to release the man into their custody?
Why is it one rule for us and another for them?

Many soldiers will now also die because of this man's act and amongst them might be British soldiers, so he will potentially be responsible for many more deaths yet by revenge acts.

The only way to appease the Afghan people and to show our trust in the government is surely to hand the perpetrator over to them? Only in that way can we hope to prevent revenge attacks.

Is one man's life - a murderers life at that - worth more than those of serving soldiers in the US and UK army?

I'm willing to listen to all opinions on this.

I agree. The US is keen enough to extradite people in other countries to be tried under their laws. He committed the crimes in Afghanistan, let him be tried by the Afghans.

CaveMum you should see what Amnesty International think of human rights in America where many men and women face the death penalty, the majority of them black and many of them without a fair trial or a trial that was rife with bribery, corruption and racism.

And what about the US torturing of suspected terrorists? Or again do they not count because they are not either white or from the west?

If ever there was an illustration of racism, this is it. The US put the Afghan government into power, it must now show the Afghan people that they have faith in that government to deliver justice. It would be a powerful sign and show of strength that the Afghan government desperately needs and would almost certainly save the lives of the soldiers out there who now face an increasingly hostile and very angry people.

Yes, it would be similar in UK. Or for UK troops in US, or Afghanistan.

The reason US could do at in UK is because of the SOFA (enacted into UK law in the Visiting Forces Act 1933, which gives reciprocal rights in this area to all NATO and Commonwealth personnel (and there are parallel rights for UK forces overseas).

SOFAs for specific operations, such as that in Afghanistan are drawn up between the host government and the visiting troops at the time.

So it's interesting to note at the first retaliation has been focussed on the Afghan Govt.

if you commit a civilian offence against civilians of that country, you should not be protected by US law

Sorry cavemun that sounds like I'm directing that second para at you, it's actually a general point.

One of my families has done a couple of tours of duty in Afghanistan and he has made no secret of the dehumanisation of the enemy that is indoctrinated into our troops. It's very sad, and I find it quite sickening, though I can understand the logic behind it.

i agree with you rhubarb. it wont happen though.

i don't think he should be handed over, it should be left to the US

for a country that jails woman for being raped then no, he should have a fair trial in the US

scaryteacher

"we train these men to kill; put them in hostile situations and still expect them to behave like civilised human beings"

Most of them manage it. Most people who serve in the Armed Forces come out better for it, some are unchanged, a very small minority end up worse off.

So four other people have already been killed as a direct result of this.

Villagers say that people cowered in fear as he went from house to house, dragging one woman out by the hair and banging her head repeatedly against a wall

Imagine if that happened in your village, on your street, and the attacker was an Afghan soldier. How would you feel?

Yes, this soldier should be handed over to the Afghans. Absolutely no question about it.

blackoutthesun - have you read the Mumsnet findings on rape recently? Do you think we can be so smug about our own record on rape? I doubt it's any different in the US.

Afghanistan ceded jurisdiction over foreign military personnel in a Status of Forces Agreement. America shouldn't break that agreement. It sets an incredibly dangerous precedent for future military engagements, many of which will probably more popular or more fashionable than Afghanistan (Uganda, anyone?).

'would you care about the strain the poor soldiers were under, if they had done this to your family?' Yes, as mine is a military family, and I am only too aware of what they will have seen and experienced in DRC, Somalia, Sierra Leone, the Balkans, Iraq and Afghanistan.

I do wonder about the mental health of those who plant IEDs and don't give a fuck if they kill NATO troops or Afghans; just like I wondered about the mental health of people like Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams. I also wondered about those who flew the planes into the towers - how can they really believe that they will get eternal glory, and that their God wants them to do this?

Agree with Edith, the SOFA won't allow him to be tried in Afghanistan.

In this instance uruculager, to save the lives of other soldiers and ease tensions, I think he should be tried at least in Afghanistan. It would provide a good example that the US has faith in and trusts the Afghan government - if needs be let him be punished in the US which will probably impose the death penalty if he's found guilty, but the trial should be in Afghanistan.

"for a country that jails woman for being raped then no, he should have a fair trial in the US"

he cant have a fair trial in the US. it isn't possible. he committed the crimes in afghanistan against afgan citizens not under orders from US command. he committed the crimes as a civilian. the afghanistan government are the only people that can give him a fair trial. and by fair, i mean according to the laws of the country against which he commited the crimes. it doesn't matter that their laws aren't 'good' according to you or anyone else. he knew he wasn't in the US. he knew he was in afghanistan and that they have different laws and penalties. these are the laws he was choosing to abide by or break. he chose to break them and so should face the penalties of those laws he broke.

scaryteacher, there is some evidence that not everyone who carries out suicide missions does so by choice. Many of them have their families threatened, or have been brainwashed since they were children when they were taken from their families. If they don't carry out an attack they know that not only will they be killed anyway, but so will their families.

If the laws of Afghanistan include abiding by their international agreements, then they have to follow the SOFA and it is clear that US has jurisdiction.

If the Afghan government starts picking and choosing which bits they follow and which they don't, then we really have achieved nothing.

uruculager yes, I know most of them manage it, and it is to their credit that they do; however, it is surprising that there is not more of this type of occurrence.

I am well aware as I am from a military family, and have been married to a military man for 25 years, how being a serving member of HM Forces affects people, coupled with what they see and are directed to do.

In general terms I agree with you Rhubarb. He should be tried where he comitted the crime. But it wont happen. He serves under the jurisdiction of US Military Law, wherever in the world he serves.

The same can be said of the UK Military, and the same would happen if this terrible act was committed by a UK soldier.

The cynic in me suggests that he will never reach a judge. Or if he does he will not live to see the judgement.

Meanwhile it is the decent serving military (of both countries) that will suffer

I am well aware as I am from a military family, and have been married to a military man for 25 years, how being a serving member of HM Forces affects people, coupled with what they see and are directed to do

and how do you think living as a civilian, as a woman or a child, in Iraq or Afghanistan affects people? what do you think they see?

Planting IEDs is not the same as a suicide mission Rhubarb.

Edith, the minute we leave Afghanistan it will be right back to the stone age and executions after Friday prayers in Kabul. I really hoped that we would be able to make a difference for the women and girls there, but I don't think we will.

yes i do, it is what we and the US would expect

but there is another side to this, this is what happens in wars, this is what happens where you take young men and women train them against the enemy, take them thousands of miles away and they are living under threat all the time so who is really responsible that person or governments who choose to go to war how can this be blamed on one man when so much is wrong

the stories of what happened in vietnam are terrible there were many incidents yet little was done but we are living in different times but we have not learnt from these mistakes and sadly doubt we shall from this terrible tragedy

YANBU. But he won't be.

so fair game then freudian? unavoidable? collateral damage?

its not ok and someone needs to take responsibility

US and UK make me a bit sick--assuming the moral high ground, and excusing shit like this