to really not identify with the feminist boards on here, when i always thought I was a feminist

[DinahMoHum]

seems so joyless and anti sex.

I feel very conflicted now. I always thought feminism was about equality for women, which I dont believe we have, but it seems to re\lly be focusing on the wrong issues for me, and getting too much into dynamics of personal relationships, and peoples sexual preferences

im probably being unreasonable

I think LeninGrad tried a welcoming couple of threads, promising patience and cake to people beginning the journey. I don't think enough people joined it to make it sustainable.
Where is LeninGrad BTW? I miss her, is she posting in places I'm not?

Beachcomer I'm not commenting on the FWR regulars at all, I don't even know who they might be. I'm just explaining my experiences using that board and why I don't bother to go there now.

Of course people can engage with whatever issues they like/ have time for.

And yes, some feminists will find slagging off other feminists more interesting and a better use of time, than slagging off woman-haters.

Just sayin.

Sirgin I think it has been expanded hasn't it? I don't think the Feminist activism section used to be there?? Could be wrong though.

Ah well perhaps you have been given a hard time by the sort of poster who gets aggressive over SAHM/WOHM discussions - they are all over MN. I'm just saying that it is not representative of feminist analysis so it seems a bit unfair to lay at it the door of the FWR section. No?

I'm not interested in slagging off feminists, I'm interested in the civil war aspects and why people see themselves as being incompatible when they are facing the same challenges in many cases.
Imagine what might be accomplished if the disharmony ended.

Beachcomber - "The nature of MN is that people tend to state their opinions fairly robustly."

So how many posts have you reported tonight?

Basil - I watched that thread. It's okay for people not to join a discussion if they don't think a discussion is possible.

I don't mean you Dust, I don't think you have particularly slagged off feminists. And I don't see you on every single one of these threads ready to join in a bitch-fest about feminists.

Nobody has said anything about the "I believe you" campaign yet.

The Feminism Section and the work a poster here did was the inspiration for it.

Do people not see that those are the things that are important, not making grand claims that no-one else on Mumsnet likes this section, when it turns out quite a few do, and they are posting here to say so?

"I think Feminists need to realise that they do not come across at all well when so many of them are aggressive, shouty and do not appear to be particularly happy or pleasant people. I realise that only a small minority of feminists are like this but they are also the most visible group and the ones who tend to make themselves heard the most."

Replace 'feminists' with 'non-feminists' and you've summed up a lot of this thread.'

I think people who fall into the non-feminist category represent about 5% of this thread, if that. They haven't been aggressive or shouty particularly.

I don't get what's to gain for women generally, for mn generally in telling outwardly feminist posters what they can and can't say and how they can and can't say it.

I've posted once on fwr and got a thanks! I've posted far more on here and generally get ignored :) Let's make loads of generalisations from this shall we?

If you don't agree with a particular viewpoint, argue your case coherently and without personal comments or generalised out downs.

I see it slightly differently Whatmeworry. I don't think that these threads get to 1000 because there is a problem with FWR.

When one of these threads kick off, what I see is a handful of people with an agenda backed up by another handful of posters with a gripe jumping in to kick a handful of posters who they won't name out of 'decency' but at the same time aren't reporting to MNHQ when they transgress in the way that apparently leads them to jump in.

I actually think that the majority of MN couldn't give a rats ass one way or another about FWR, that FWR is excessively trolled and that some posters mistake not having an understanding of feminism as wide as some of the regular posters on that board as feeling like they can't connect with it.

Is the answer really to dumb down? I'd like to think that Mumsnet don't need to resort to Feminism for Dummies to engage with the majority of posters and it would be a massive shame if it did.

Well since you ask so nicely I have reported 5 - they all contained personal attacks.

I don't report people because they robustly disagree with me. Because I'm a grown up, who can handle being disagreed with on the internet without taking it personally, and having to start threads about threads, you see.

We have been told numerous times by MNHQ to report posts that break the guidelines rather than get into bunfights over those posts. Perhaps you should take it up with MNHQ if you think their rules over standards of behaviour with regards to attacking posters, is wrong?

Beachcomber Sun 11-Mar-12 22:13:27
Ah well perhaps you have been given a hard time by the sort of poster who gets aggressive over SAHM/WOHM discussions - they are all over MN. I'm just saying that it is not representative of feminist analysis so it seems a bit unfair to lay at it the door of the FWR section. No?

Beachcomer Yes, I might have just been unlucky when I have posted on the FWR boards, wrong time, wrong place, wrong opinion type of thing.

I'm not commenting on feminist analysis as a whole and am not trying to lay anything at the FWR door.

My point is simply this; its a shame that there are posters who are interested enough in feminism to go onto the FWR board don't stay because they say they don't feel valued or welcome there. It does happen and its a shame.

shitthatsalotofmoney I'll take your word for it.

However given that most / all women experience some form of sexism and descrimination on a regular basis surely it's a massive failure that more MN'ers aren't engaging and visiting the Feminist boards.

Maybe do a Tony Blair and call it New Feminism :o

Why do feminists "need" to realise they don't come across well?

To whom?

It's what we're saying that people don't like. You can try and be as inoffensive and charming about the way you say it as you like, but if people don't like the content, they won't like the content.

It's also buying into the usual tired misogynistic stereotypes - feminists not coming across well, couldn't they get a makeover so they'll come across as less feminist, won't frighten off misogynists who don't want equality anyway, etc., etc.

I mean seriously. This has all been said before and done before and women did stop being militant and shouty in the eighties and 90s and what we've had as a reward for not frightening people off and being more circumspect and tentative and less angry and aggressive, is an explosion of violent porn and the mainstreaming of porn and an absolute bloody epidemic of violence, along with a workload which means that the average man now has about 15 hours more leisure time than the average woman. And the pay gap still exists and equal representation is still 400 years away. That's where not being aggressive has got us.

Women are not going to get equality, by being nicey nicey and never touching the real issues and never challenging the status quo and never bloody thinking. We switched off for a couple of decades and look wehre it's got us. We're not going to switch off anymore and that will piss some people off, for which I'm sorry, but it will switch other people on, for which I'm delighted.

Beachcomber - 5 seems a lot for a grown-up who doesn't take things personally. There was a case being made earlier for robust comments and the freedom to express unorthodox views. The posts that I saw before they disappeared didn't seem any more personal than many I've seen stand. The ones that stand remain because no one complains about them.

LOL at SGM's good name.

I am having visions of Daniel Day Lewis going on about his name in The Crucible (dreadful film)

Perhaps we should start dispelling myths. Perhaps all those who identify as feminists - whether 'fun-fem' or radical, FWR hater or lover - should start stating how they feel about joy and sex.

I'll start.

I am a feminist.

I laugh at least once every day and am probably the happiest person I know TBH. In RL I am known for positivity and while I'm not going to be auditioning for a position at Butlins in a redcoat, I think I have a healthily developed sense of fun.

That doesn't stop me getting angry about inequality and fighting to do something about it. Does everyone who has a cause have to be brooding? If so, I'll get my coat. But if they are brooding, so what? If you feel passionate about a cause and you suffer a set-back/unjustified criticism, it's only human to get pissed off about it and bite back from time to time. Anger can be a positive force for change.

I like sex. Don't want to stray into TMI territory but I'm quite adventurous and open-minded about it. As long as it doesn't involve children or animals, and consent is unequivocal, anything goes in my book. I just think the question of what is consent needs a closer examination. What's wrong with that? Why is that threatening and considered disliking of sex?

I like men, but I don't like fuckwits. I don't think all men are fuckwits, but I do think quite a few are - not most, but quite a few. Unfortunately, because we live in a male-dominated society, the effect these few have on what is perceived as normal is disproportionate and does a lot of women a lot of harm. The normalisation of rape myths (she was asking for it) and domestic violence excuses (she provoked him) are but two extreme examples. There are also subtle ones that are far more insidious. I like to examine those and pull them apart so that other women don't have to fall foul of them in the future.

What is joyless or disliking of sex in all that? I am a great believer in the old Abraham Lincoln quote that "most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." But I'm not a passive doormat either. The ability to find happiness in what you have is a great coping philosophy for daily life, but it doesn't exactly encourage change and progression does it, and it's quite often used to keep people in their place.

I think it's possible to be happy, joyful, sexual and still be a feminist. I don't know many feminists who disagree with that actually - it tends to be those who don't really understand what feminism is or feel threatened by it who come up with the stereotype that feminists hate life in general, men in particular, and any form of sex full stop.

'Why do feminists "need" to realise they don't come across well? To whom'

Well in the context if this thread the thousands of web savy women who visit everyday obviously.

Diatoma I suggest you complain to MNHQ if you disagree with the advice they have given me of reporting personal attacks made on other posters.

Believe you me, I'm surprised too at how many there are on these sorts of threads!