to really not identify with the feminist boards on here, when i always thought I was a feminist

[DinahMoHum]

seems so joyless and anti sex.

I feel very conflicted now. I always thought feminism was about equality for women, which I dont believe we have, but it seems to re\lly be focusing on the wrong issues for me, and getting too much into dynamics of personal relationships, and peoples sexual preferences

im probably being unreasonable

stewie - I think there afre some very intelligent and intellectual posters on every board here. But there are also those who have posted that they don't always understand the big words used by some posters and struggle to understand some posts. So I don't think the 2 views are mutually exclusive - different peopel with different views, thats all.

I agree with KatieMiddleton, I think one of the reasons people absolutely loathe the MN feminists, is because we go on relationships boards and call sexist behaviour and abusive behaviour for what it is. And tragically, many women are in long term relationships with really horrible abusive men. But they have children with htem, mortgages with them, are trapped with them so they don't have the option to leave, at least not atm. The way to defend yourself against the knowledge that your DH is vile and that your relationship is pitiable, is to be in utter denial about it.

When women post about circumstances which are similar to your's and other women tell them that this is abuse and unacceptable and that they deserve better, that is fucking heart-rending for you - of course you're going to feel defensive, of course you're going to resent the women pointing out that this is not normal, what you can expect from a relationship, but really, seriously shit - of course you're going to go into a cataclysmic tantrum and go mad with posts desperately telling the OP that her relationship is normal and everyone telling her it's abusive or sad or painful, are a bunch of lunatics.

How else would you be able to face your life? If you have a vested interest in trying to pretend your relationship is not that bad, then you have to try and persuade other abused women, that their relationships are OK too. If you are tying yourself into intellectual knots to try and match up your aspirations with your reality, you just can't afford for that gap to be pointed out and you will feel very angry and attacked by anyone who points it out.

I am very sorry for anyone who is in that position. And I guess I've got to a stage where I accept that they're just going to attack feminist sprites on the interweb regularly, as a self-defence mechanism. I wish women didn't have to set up other women as scapegoats for the shortcomings of the men in their lives, but hey ho.

fundamentally feminism is the belief that women are equal to men. Lots of people believe that without agreeing on loads of other things.

There are all sorts of other aspects that flow from the fundamental belief, and people can disagree about which directions they take. This is A Good Thing - people debating ideas, living their lives in the way that suits them best and all that.

Just as people can both believe in the same God but express that in very different ways - Judaism, Islam, Christianity and then each sub-division such as Catholicism, protestantism, etc. etc. etc.

I don't expect to agree on every topic you can think of just because someone else agrees with me that that, for instance, killing people is wrong. Why would I expect to agree with everyone else who believes that women and men are equal?

I think it's pretty easy to see why it is. It's the usual suspects with the usual axe to grind. Some people just object to the feminism section and want to see it shut down or changed beyond recognition so the radicals are kept out. They'll go after individual posters e.g. me, or they'll start generalised attack threads. I think they are doing what they accuse the feminists of - bullying.

YANBU. I find that many of the louder 'feminists' on here are not about equality at all, only about reversing the oppression onto men and being as selfish as possible while labelling it all feminism. I lost patience with it and don't bother on here anymore. That kind of 'feminism' thankfully seems to be on it's way out even though it is huge on this forum. That's just certain posters shouting louder than others.

Catgirl I think you have answered why you perceive the FWR board the way you do. I agree with AyeRobot that the first step to learning is challenging one's own views. Also when I want to learn about why other people hold the views they do, I tend to listen to those views, and ask questions about stuff I don't understand, rather than 'challenge' and consider others to be lacking in nuance.

Useful exchange can be lost if things get too adversarial I find.

But meltedchocolate - All you are saying is that some women who post in feminism have different views to you. Sorry but you don't get to decide which view is allowed to be posted.

It's interesting also, that the people who are coming on to this thread and saying that they find the feminism section useful and thought provoking are being ignored in favour of the received wisdom that it's crap. Not for some people it isn't, so why do the FWR critics feel their view is the one that should prevail?

I should say that my posts isn't about the relationships board which I think generally gets good solid advice. A lot of people giving advice have been in abusive relationships and know what they will no longer tolerate and what they wouldn't want others to tolerate either.

I perceive these threads as a collective attempt at bullying too.

Fantasticaly there have been loads of posters who have said really positive things too so this one doesn't feel as upsetting as the last one.

Mumsnet is running an anti-rape myth campaign "I believe you" to support women who have been raped. Its inspiration was something that happened in FWR, the Mumsnet section where rape myths and rape apologism are comprehensively and robustly challenged. Those challenges are uncomfortable but they are better than the other situation where rape victims are disbelieved, blamed or ignored and they never receive justice or recognition that harm was done to them. In my opinion the FWR space is necessary and good, maybe with exactly the same faults as every other section of Mumnset, no better or worse.

Also, catgirl, why only challenge feminists? Why not also challenge those posting non-feminist or anti-women views? There's a fair amount of F4J shit flying about that could do with some additional robustness, for example.

I would like to discuss the 'concepts' but I don't understand the wording often used. Its not a criticism,merely an observation.
It doesn't alter my belief that I'm a feminist and there is no one here saying I can't start a thread requesting we all speak in simple terms!

Lesley I would not dream of not allowing someone to post because I thought they were extreme in their views. I just said that I don't bother with it. I said I don't think it actually is feminism because it isn't equality they seem to want.

Erm........what makes you think I don't Robot???

(not the F4J stuff, but seems a rather sweeping assumption that the only people I ever challenge are "feminists". I am rather unsure where you got that from)

countess - why don't you post a thread in feminism saying what you want to discuss and asking for posters to post in easier to understand language?

But I don't think you can fairly ask posters to do that on a whole board. Some posters want to discuss some pretty academic or complex issues so will use.language or concepts that aren't so every dayu

If anyone is lurking (like what I normally do). Have a read of fwr and make up your own mind! These things seem a bit like propaganda sometimes to me to put off folks from engaging with the feminism boards. If you can cope with AIBU, you will do anywhere :)

QuickLookBusy - Sun 11-Mar-12 15:47:56 - "Catgirl is being now picked on by several people because she posted the above. But what she has posted is her experience, is she not allowed to discuss it?? And your rounding on her and not being willing to listen to her pov proves her original statement."

I think you've put that very well, QLB. I've gone around expressing my views for 57 years, pissing many people off along the way. The only ones to have ever sent me hate mail in consequence are members of the FWR board. Yes, everyone has the right to dispute an opinion, but personal attacks in private messages? It's not coz they is feminists (as am I). It's not valid political dispute. It's unreasonable, and perhaps shows a sense of entitlement embattlement that underpins the unfriendliness some people feel.

Before anyone accuses me of digging up old corpses, let me say I don't lose sleep over the hate campaign any more and am shit at holding grudges. I'm trying to show that FWR does, in fact, have some vitriolic regulars and denying this fact won't lessen the anxiety of those who'd like to post there, but are scared. When you pull apart the posts of people saying "it scares me", you're minimising. When you say "it's because you ain't thinking right", you're belittling.

Personally I have no problem with the board as it is, I just steer a bit clear. Everybody has the right to post as they wish. But everybody does NOT have the right to tell others they are wrong to feel unwelcome. I don't think FWR regulars need to change the way they post. I think they need to stop attacking posters who dislike it.

God, that was an unintended ramble

handbag - I agree. After reading stuff like this here I was put off the feminism board. I was pleasantly surprised when I actually went on it. AIBU is much more challenging ime.

Brilliant. Its a great way to clarify what you think.

That was very well put garlicbutter

I'm pretty sure I didn't ask that posters use easy too understand language in the whole board.

garlicbutter - That is wrong of any posters to do that and thankfully I haven't come across it. But I have also read posters saying they got nasty pms as a result of postings in aibu. Unfortunately they are some nasty posters and if anyone has been a victim of these because of feminism board, I do understand their reluctance to go on it.

But ime most threads there are not like that.