Pregnant Foreign Students

[Jibby123]

I started this discussion in another thread. Since it was getting heated I decided to move it here. The synopsis is "Can anyone tell me why foreign students who get pregnant are being treated like criminals within the immigration.

The immigration system allows for the withdrawal of visa from any student who misses 10 classes after having a baby. This is scandalous.

Are foreign mothers inferior to other mothers or does pregnancy affect them in a different way?

Some argue that a visa is given for studies and not to have babies but we know that pregnancies do not necessarily as planned especially when students are allowed to bring their spouses along with them as dependants.

Just because you are a foreign student is not a ban on sex.

This situation puts a lot of pressure on pregnant foreign students and is causing them to go through harrowing experiences while pregnant as they worry about their visa status and are forced to attend studies even when they are not fit to. The pregnancy alone is hard enough.

Pregnancy is not a disease, not a crime and certainly not an immigration offence.

WE need to raise this issue to the government so that they can treat pregnant foreign students in a more humane manner."

Here is a link to the original thread and the points that were made.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pregnancy/1413246-Pregnant-Foreign-Students?pg=1

Fair enough, Edith - I don't know much about how the technology works, but there are plenty of other examples.

Yellow, I think that's half the problem, isn't it - there have been so many changes that staff are now confused as to what their real obligations are.

I still don't get why anyone would think the rule is reasonable. I went to the US for studies, missed loads of classes, took a semester off to 'find myself'. I still finished with top marks in my degree, got a good job, contributed a lot in taxes.

If people have done a flit to find an illegal job, they are hardly going to show up at the end of the university year to be deported.

This kind of micro management is just bonkers. Resolves nothing and puts a strain on normal people just trying to live their lives.

Honey what exactly do you mean 'staff are now confused as to what their real obligations are'?

Obligations to who?

Sorry, reporting obligations.

Sanna just because there are rules, it doesn't make them just. 100 years back there were rules that a married woman was the property of her husband. Now women who got married, just had to accept their fate because it was 'the rule'?

" there are plenty of other examples"

Could you expand on this? As I'm just left wondering if any others of those might also be misunderstandings of normal international practice.

I don't necessarily agree with the rule, but schools have to comply with it.

The problem, I guess, is that we have a far higher standard of living in the UK than a lot of countries. People are willing to do almost anything to come and live here - one guy I know told me a story about 2 Chinese kids who were sent to a school by their parents and then a fake kidnapping was staged so they didn't have to leave.

If we just said anyone who wants can turn up and live here, no problems, we would end up with far more people than the country could cope with.

It's sad but that's how it is.

Sanna, I agree that people who disappear for months are not following the rules and should not expect breaks, but you're not answering my question about people who follow the rules and ask for authorised absences but are refused. That is not about people not following the rules, it's about the rules being too harshly applied.

Honey, everything you say makes a lot of sense.

Flatbread - No one is stating that these women are property or that they do not have rights. If they come into the country on a student visa then they need to attend their studies, not to so is to be in breach of their visas.

There is a certain amount of grey area according to their college and their previous record of studies. But no one gets a free pass just because they are pregnant.

yellow , but remember, these students are paying a lot to come in and study here.

There can be rules that once they finish their studies, they get a one year placement period and then have to go back. How does it help to micromanage how many classes they attend and why they misses classes and is it reasonable or did they just party too much? It is a waste of our tax payer resources to devote time to these meaningless rules and the paperwork they generate.

As an aside, I personally am of the belief that countries should allow immigration, it makes a society younger, more dynamic and ultimately more prosperous. Moribund societies which only want to protect their own often suffer from the high costs of taking care of an ageing population and reduced innovation. New people, new ideas, new energy, entrepreneurism, that is the kind of society I want to live in.

I am in Scotland and I think the benefit culture is prevalent amongst the 'indigenous' scots, where often three generations have never worked. I think despite the DM myth, most immigrants come into work, and build a better life. They pay taxes and employ others in their businesses and ultimately subsidise the lifestyle of those who have never worked.

Another part of the problem is that there is now a cap on the number of student visas that can be issued. It doesn't seem fair to me that one student who isn't studying here is taking up a place that someone else could have.

Edith - for example, the rule that backgrounds on visa photos must be light grey as opposed to the mid grey required for passport photos. I do find it absurd that an application can be rejected because the background is the wrong shade of grey. The biometrics technology clearly works with mid grey, so I don't think this can be the reason. And in any case, they don't apply the rules consistently, it depends on the caseworker on the day.

There have been some stupid decisions on the rules about bank statements too - again, very inconsistently applied. Too conplex to explain here. I understand why the rules are there with regard to bank statements, but again, there should be a little common sense in applying them.

dreamingbohemian - If they are refused they can use the college appeals process or liaise with the UKBA directly.

But to be honest if you have a certificate from a doctor or a note from your midwife then your absence is authorised. At my college any way.

And it is not like we contact the UKBA the second you miss your tenth contact. There are three warning letters sent out at four, seven and ten missed contacts. Each letter asks the student to get in touch and explains in detail what will happen if the students fails to make contact/continues to be absent. After the 7th absence the student is contacted by telephone and email. After the tenth missed contact we change the student to suspended status and give them ten days to come into the college in person to rectify the situation. Then, and ONLY then, do we discontinue sponsorship and notify the UKBA.

sanna' what do you mean by 'free pass'? Why do foreign students need to justify their pregnancy to you or the state? You sound patronising to be honest.

Think about it, you are a student, got a hefty workload, find out that you are pregnant, need to rejuggle finances, work, relationships. And then you have the added anxiety of justifying every time you need to take time off.

And the student pays a hefty fee for the privilege!

I know they are paying a lot. That's not the issue though. The issue is that the government doesn't want people to come here on false pretences.

Students who regularly don't come to class are also hugely disruptive to a school. It is deeply frustrating as a teacher to never know how many will be in your class, who has already studied what and so on. Of course that goes for EU students too.

Believe me, I have absolutely no issue with immigrants, I live in London and am more than happy to share the city with immigrants and I certainly don't hanker after some purely white Anglo Saxon BS. But there is not infinite room here unfortunately. People who come here to study should be studying.

I do think the rules are very unfair in some cases. Students are basically not allowed to work, some can work 10 hours a week but most not at all. They need huge levels of money before their application will even be considered. They need to be at a high level of English before they even arrive to study, which to me makes no sense for students of English.

But if people come here to study, they should be studying.

Flatbread - I said exactly what I meant. Just because someone is pregnant does not negate the conditions of their visa. Each case is individual and should be dealt as such.

Flatbread - It might be unfair, but that is part and parcel of choosing to study here.

Sanna, my point was that if something is unfair we should try to change it. The os students do not have any power, but the universities do, and they should push back against such rules.

This particular rule seems a waste of time and resource and of really of no meaningful benefit to the taxpayer ( in fact, might be negative if os students refuse to come and pay if the rules become draconian)

"Why should a foreign male student be able to father children while studying without losing there visas while a female foreign student has to lose hers?"

yeah! that!

Because presumably the male student is still turning up to class?

That is shit, but it's the way of the world and until we get to such a time as men father children or we have universal childcare for all, that will continue to be the case.

Flatbeard, it is really unlikely that in the near future people will refuse to come and study in the UK whatever the rules are. There is a huge demand. People want/need to learn English for their jobs and a UK education is considered highly prestigious.

Schools/universities could fight back but honestly why would they? It's in their interest to have students who came here to study actually attending classes.

TEN DAYS though! I was still passing clots at day 10 and establishing feeding!

If someone arrived here on a works visa, then did something stupid and reckless that warranted the loss of their job, I'd be all for saying "sorry, no job, no visa".

Same with the pregnancy. If you're coming here to study, then you shouldn't be picking up blokes. You should be studying.

yellow , I wouldn't take it for granted that os students will come here. For MBA programs, there is fierce competition among the top European and US schools, and students would just as likely go to an INSEAd as LBS and spend their £75,000 to £100,000 there instead.

For other courses, I think any English speaking country is a contender for foreign students. Australia for example, has a major drive to to recruit foreign students.

In my university town in the US, the foreign students (especially undergrad) were spenders (rich families) and supported the local economy. And they often continue to give and if you look at the donation list from alumni in my ex university, a lot of them are overseas.

I think if missing classes is disruptive and that is the reason for these rules, then it should apply across the board for all students, not just foreign ones.

StealthPenguin - are you being deliberately inflammatory, or do you really think that all foreigner students should take a vow of celibacy for the three or four years that they are doing their degrees? Even if they are married?

What is it that you have that is so precious that you think other people should accept such drastic restrictions on their lives to protect? Why are your wishes and intentions so much more important than those of people born outside the UK?