Pregnant Foreign Students

[Jibby123]

I started this discussion in another thread. Since it was getting heated I decided to move it here. The synopsis is "Can anyone tell me why foreign students who get pregnant are being treated like criminals within the immigration.

The immigration system allows for the withdrawal of visa from any student who misses 10 classes after having a baby. This is scandalous.

Are foreign mothers inferior to other mothers or does pregnancy affect them in a different way?

Some argue that a visa is given for studies and not to have babies but we know that pregnancies do not necessarily as planned especially when students are allowed to bring their spouses along with them as dependants.

Just because you are a foreign student is not a ban on sex.

This situation puts a lot of pressure on pregnant foreign students and is causing them to go through harrowing experiences while pregnant as they worry about their visa status and are forced to attend studies even when they are not fit to. The pregnancy alone is hard enough.

Pregnancy is not a disease, not a crime and certainly not an immigration offence.

WE need to raise this issue to the government so that they can treat pregnant foreign students in a more humane manner."

Here is a link to the original thread and the points that were made.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pregnancy/1413246-Pregnant-Foreign-Students?pg=1

Those on student visas aren't immigrants though, they haven't emigrated, they are temporary residents for specific purposes. And whether we like it or not, that purpose is not to start a family.
If the universities have a problem with the rules, its them that should be seeking change, they have plenty of sway.

Dreaming - it was the jobseekers advice line about three yrs ago. If a woman has no right to mat leave, smp, or MA (bear in mind in can be due to any combination of circumstances) then by law she has no kind right to any recovery time before trying to get back in the workplace.

(Sorry, not the best sentence. Feeling a bit rotten today.)

But starting a family shouldn't have to interfere with their purpose for being here. And it needn't have to, if we'd just show a bit of humanity and let them have a couple months off if they need it.

If we let European students take maternity leave, I don't see why non-EU can't have the same.

Wellies -- oh I see, you mean she has to go back if she wants to keep claiming JSA? That seems harsh. 2 weeks!

Oh no, no, not for claiming JSA. It was a call to clarify what on earth else was left if no entitlement to ML, SMP, MA and the answer was nothing, that within a couple of weeks you'd be deemed fit to work so try and find a job again.

Ah, I see. Still very harsh! Wow.

People do forget that not everyone gets maternity pay of some kind.

I work in a private college that deals with mainly international students on Tier 4 visas. Absence policies are dictated by UKBA regulations, namely that if the student is absent for 10 teaching contacts/sessions unauthorised, then the UKBA is duly notified.

The key word here is UNAUTHORISED. Similarly to a work place if someone just doesn't turn up it is different than if they have notified as to the reason of their absence.

If a student is pregnant and they provide documentation from their doctor, then the absence is AUTHORISED and there is no issue of missed contacts. However evidence is key.

Sponsoring students is a complicated business and we are bound by pages and pages of rules and regulations. It is not unreasonable to expect student to abide by them. If a college fails to abide by UKBA regulations they can lose their sponsorship licence altogether.

When it comes to a student visa there is no such thing as maternity leave and as such, pregnant students cannot expect to miss months and months of college without any ramifications.

Sanna how long would a student be authorised to miss after having a baby?

My point is that it seems unfair that UK and EU students CAN miss months of school but non-EU students cannot. I know those are the rules I just don't think it's particularly fair.

If you look at this, it is as some have been advocating, up to the university of other institution. For without their report, there is unlikely to be no action. So there is every opportunity for those who miss substantial parts of their course to convince their tutors etc that they can complete on time.

This is equally true of those who are ill for prolonged periods, or are involved in accidents and require substantial time off and possible adaptation. If it can be managed, then it will be.

But if it is incompatible, then returning to place of origin and restarting later is likely to be the sensible option.

British students in UK may also be expected to return home when illness, trauma or confinement prevent adequate progress on their course, and redraft/retake in the following academic year. Just because your home may be a little further away does not give grounds for preferential treatment over home students.

Kind of with thecat. I lived abroad on a working visa and there were lots of restrictions. Did my best to abide but if I had a mishap then I'd have expected my visa to be invalid etc.

But accidents do happen and people fall in love - a difficult one.

Those on student visas aren't immigrants though, they haven't emigrated, they are temporary residents for specific purposes. And whether we like it or not, that purpose is not to start a family.
If the universities have a problem with the rules, its them that should be seeking change, they have plenty of sway.

But as far as government stats are concerned, they are immigrants. And universities do have many, many problems with the rules, not least because of the administrative burden of implementing layer upon layer of changes to the system. Sadly, they have much less sway than you might think.

sanna, it's correct that the university is only required to report unauthorised absences, but the fact is, some institutions remain very unclear as to what they can and can't authorise, and tend to err on the side of caution because they can't afford to lose the sponsor license.

Time given as authorised absence would depend on the whatever the student's doctor decided. I know of a student that had a traumatic birth who was off for six weeks. Another who was put on bed rest was off for a month.

Conversely, a student who disappeared for two months and who was reported to the UKBA. Then showed up at the college with a baby and said that it was unfair, etc.

In that kind of situation the college has no choice but to report the student to the UKBA. If the student knows she is pregnant then it is down to her to inform the college and get a medical certificate to cover any absences. Also please note that the absences are not cumulative. Two unauthorised absences followed by regular attendance reset the count. However if the UKBA asks for the student's attendance %, it is given as, so the visa may still be withdrawn if the UKBA deem it unreasonable absence.

I had a baby during my first year of my degree but still managed to finish the first year despite having a c section, no family support yadda yadda yadda and then I was allowed to take a year off before completing the rest. That's as a UK resident. University wasn't at all understanding about my pregnancy, they couldn't have given two hoots, that was life I am afraid

Thank you for explaining

So do you think the only way someone would be reported is if they literally just disappear for months? Or are there people who apply for authorised absences but are rejected? Life with a newborn can be tough even if medically fit, e.g. no sleep, hard to find childcare for a 3 week old, etc. Would these be unauthorised then?

It's a lot of uncertainty for a woman to deal with, hoping that both her GP and her uni will be understanding enough (not all GPs are good about writing sick notes).

The easiest way to enter the country and 'disappear' is to come in on a student visa. My mate is lecturer and he says they spend the whole of first term chasing up people who have never even appeared at university, yet have come on these kind of visas.

I sound very UKIP, I am not, i am just stating what my friend has told me, I don't have an opinion on the actual issue

So really, there isn't a problem with the rules, they are clear and fair. Absences must be authorised and documented.
So there really isn't a problem then?

I work for a foreign language school. We have a lot of visa students. Honestly, if people miss classes, they obviously aren't here to study. If pregnancy was a valid excuse for getting a student visa and then skipping classes, we would get thousands of students applying and then just leaving to work illegally or whatever.

There are reasons for the law, I don't agree with a lot of immigration law (like you need x amount of money to apply, thousands and thousands of pounds in your account for months - I think that's really unfair) but there is a reason for this one.

It must suck big time to get pregnant on a year abroad, but seriously, it's not on for a pregnant student to think she can continue to stay here if she's not a studying and therefore not a student.

And yes, as others have said, if the student goes to her doctor, her absence will likely be authorised and she can stay. Not sure what would happen if she re-applied though.

These days it is NOT that easy to come in on a normal student visa. For one thing you have to show that you have access to about £20,000 a year.

The visas that are routinely abused are the short-term student visas. I think there is less of an issue there about maternity leave or letting students stay, as they are already not expecting to be in the UK very long.

It's true that some people can get around the system and disappear in the UK. I don't see how letting students have a bit of maternity leave will really address that problem. What they should do is crack down on illegal migrant employers and trafficking networks.

Or are there people who apply for authorised absences but are rejected?

Yes, there are. Some institutions in particular are very nervous about this. The UKBA states that there should be "reasonable" grounds for authorising absences. Now, any sane person might think that giving birth would count as "reasonable" grounds for being absent, but those who deal with the UKBA regularly know that their interpretation of reasonable is not the same as anyone else's. For example, I think it's pretty unreasonable to reject a visa application because the applicant has his/her mouth slightly open on their photo, but the UKBA clearly thinks this is reasonable because they do it on a regular basis.

Institutions cannot afford to have their sponsor licenses revoked because they would lose the significant income stream from foreign students if that happened. Most continue to apply common sense regardless, but some choose to err on the side of caution because they don't trust the UKBA to make reasonable decisions.

My mate is lecturer and he says they spend the whole of first term chasing up people who have never even appeared at university, yet have come on these kind of visas.

I think your friend has got the wrong end of the stick. There is no requirement to chase up people who never arrive, they should simply be reported to the UKBA as no-shows.

And it really isn't that easy to get a student visa these days.

So there really isn't a problem then?

I think there is a problem, a) because the rules are not as clear as they should be, b) because they keep getting changed and c) because they rely on a tick box mentality over and above the application of common sense.

"to reject a visa application because the applicant has his/her mouth slightly open on their photo"

This is also inflicted on everyone who applies for a British passport, and so cannot be construed as an anti-immigration issue. It is driven by the biometric technology which now underpins all identity documents, and is done to common standard internationally.

The rules seem to be less clear these days. We are not even sure what percentage of classes a student needs to attend before we report. It used to be quite clear (80% as far as I remember.)

Honestly, if someone is here on a student visa it is not a unreasonable expectation that they attend their studies. It may sound harsh, but as I said a student visa does not come with maternity leave.

In the real world a lot of British woman who get pregnant while studying have to discontinue their studies, and that is even with family support, etc. In the case of an international student who is here on a student visa discontinuing their studies means that they are no longer a student and have to go home.

Just because someone gets pregnant does not magically change their status. The rules are clear and fair on this point.

In a lot of cases students fail to communicate with both their sponsor and the UKBA and then act surprised when their leave is cancelled. In past instances I have seen students get pregnant and then fail to attend college for the remainder of their leave. They then show up a week before their visa expires and expect us to help then extend their leave.

Are we being unfair when we say no just because they got pregnant and had a child? They come into the country under certain rules, calling foul play when we then expect them to follow said rules is a lot of shit in my opinion.

You may say that it is a lot of stress on a new mother, but being a new mother doesn't excuse them from ignoring the rules of their leave to remain.