Pregnant Foreign Students

[Jibby123]

I started this discussion in another thread. Since it was getting heated I decided to move it here. The synopsis is "Can anyone tell me why foreign students who get pregnant are being treated like criminals within the immigration.

The immigration system allows for the withdrawal of visa from any student who misses 10 classes after having a baby. This is scandalous.

Are foreign mothers inferior to other mothers or does pregnancy affect them in a different way?

Some argue that a visa is given for studies and not to have babies but we know that pregnancies do not necessarily as planned especially when students are allowed to bring their spouses along with them as dependants.

Just because you are a foreign student is not a ban on sex.

This situation puts a lot of pressure on pregnant foreign students and is causing them to go through harrowing experiences while pregnant as they worry about their visa status and are forced to attend studies even when they are not fit to. The pregnancy alone is hard enough.

Pregnancy is not a disease, not a crime and certainly not an immigration offence.

WE need to raise this issue to the government so that they can treat pregnant foreign students in a more humane manner."

Here is a link to the original thread and the points that were made.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pregnancy/1413246-Pregnant-Foreign-Students?pg=1

MrsPeter, the rules say nothing about pregnancy, so your theory is flawed. The issue is simply that the rules make no exceptions for pregnancy, despite exceptions being made elsewhere e.g. In the workplace. I doubt that it has even been considered.

The problem with the system is that, if followed to the letter, it doesn't allow universities to exercise any real discretion about whether a student is genuinely engaged with their studies or otherwise.

Well... I think women have had some other privileges their partners didn't.

I don't know if this is still the case but I remember that back in my times in uni, any wife brought by an overseas student would get a working permit automatically. Husbands of students didn't seem to have the same benefit...

Now, from your other thread, I can see that you are not prepared to contemplate any points of view different to your own, so wonder if there is any point in trying to initiate a debate when in fact what you want is a monologue.

I understand where are you coming from, but looking at it from another perspective... an overseas student woman who has practical support in the UK is unlikely to miss so many classes. One that has no practical support... dear woman, she may not like the idea of going back but I'm sure she knew how difficult it would be to be a single parent, while studying and having no practical support in this country... she would be begging to go back to familiar places where she can go through pregnancy and maternity leave with more support.

mrsD, it has nothing to do with the baby, actually. More the fact that the mum might need some time to recover from the birth. If she misses more than ten "expected contacts" (ie classes, meetings, deadlines etc) then the institution has a legal duty to report this to the ukba.

Its not about me. Its about people I have met. They are the unseen ones. Those the anti immigrant British don't want to believe exist.

Yes the rules are there but a student who has been attending university for a year or two and has been attending classes constantly should not be punished when they get pregnant.

How does deliberately getting pregnant benefit a foreign student? She or the child cannot claim benefits or even claim British nationality. Why would they want to deliberately get pregnant? If you know some advantages of that please tell us.

On the other hand, when you consider mature students who are allowed to come to the UK with their spouses as dependants, you won't expect them not to have sex, would you? If they get pregnant why should they be punished?

Piglet, I don't know where you saw a monologue when there are so many contributors but I'll let that pass.

I have said that if a woman cannot continue with her studies then she has no choice but to go home. If she can then she should be allowed to remain.

If this rule also applies to men who miss classes, etc due to a male-only illness then it is not sexist.

Jibby, I take your point about fathering a child over here, absolutely. Is the problem that once the child is born over here it becomes a Uk citizen by default, and therefore the visa effectively stops being a student visa and that mother receives permanent leave to remain?

Honest question - I know very little about the immigration rules to the UK.

The child would take its mother's nationality. America gives automatic nationality to those born on its soil, as did Ireland until they wised p to that loophole

People aren't saying that maternity rights should be taken away or trying to turn back the clock. They're saying that biologically, the woman will inevitably have a greater life change than the man, that's life.

Students should comply with their visa regulations, end of. However, 10 sessions does seems very harsh when non-student immigrants/asylum seekers etc. who are required to report are given longer off reporting after giving birth. How would the student keep up with their studies after birth? That is, how long does the university give any student who's given birth off afterwards and how do they catch up with the time lost? As far as the UKBA are concerned, the student will not be complying and in all likelihood will be applying for an extention of leave, which may not fit within their rules.

Apologies for grammatical/spelling errors, I really should be asleep right now.

If I were mounting a legal challenge, the grounds would be very simple. Is a particular condition of a visa harder to comply with for a woman than a man? If yes, then challenge. If no, then forget it.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as 10 sessions though. I'd assume that if you were pregnant and told your tutor you wouldn't be attending class on x date because you had an antenatal appointment they wouldn't chase up your absence to immigration officials. You'd have to be a hard-ass to be carrying on like that, especially if the student was catching up with the work etc. I'm just going on own university experience though, they were pretty good when it came to stuff like that.

But I do agree that if you're here on a student visa, you're here to study. If, for whatever reason, you're not doing that then the terms of your visa should be revisited.

Jibby, I've just deleted a whole section of my argument as it gave away too much personal info, but AS AN IMMIGRANT, if my visa said I couldn't stop doing X in order for me to stay and doing Y would stop me doing X, then I would either not do Y or give up X and face the consequences. Personally, I think getting a visa into a foreign country is a pretty big deal, and you should respect it.

But how will they ever get back to their studies anyway? surely they aren't entitled to childcare costs as well so who will be looking after the baby?

They could always try a bit harder to not get pregnant in the first place if their sudies are so important...crazy idea that one and I know it never goes down well

Craic, I would agree. My lecturers let me take my newborn to lectures and seminars. If he cried, I left and caught up later.

Ah, right thanks for that clarification, Honey and muffin.

So is the problem then that 10 missed sessions is too few, Jibby? Thinking back missing 10 lectures wouldn't have been the end of the world, missing 10 tutorials would be more than an entire term and really very tricky to catch up upon.

How does it affect things like the NHS? Do we as taxpayers foot the bill for the birth/antenatal/postnatal care?

Students who get pregnant whilst on a student visa are not studying they should go home and continue their studies when they are able.

I can't see a problem with that.

Seems like bad business on the part of the government. Foreign students are paying lots more than the non-foreign ones, not to mention the rent/food/goods that they are buying while in the country with money from elsewhere, so it would be worth figuring out how to keep them in the country and in school, I would have thought. And if that means giving them a reasonable amount of time to take a leave of absence for a baby, then it's a bit silly not to.

So is the problem then that 10 missed sessions is too few, Jibby?

I don't think so. In some cases, ten missed contacts might be very good reason to revoke the visa, and indeed, there might be cases in which it would be appropriate to report after only five missed contacts.

In my view, the problem lies in specifying any number of missed contacts as an absolute cut-off. It would be more sensible, I think, to give universities a bit more discretion. Guidelines should be provided, yes, but there should be room for a little flexibility too. At the moment, I think some universities exercise this discretion regardless, but as it is not explicitly allowed, others may be too nervous to do so.

No studying, nom student visa. Sorted.

Who's paying for the anti natal care of these women?

International students can access the NHS, as can anyone who is legally resident in the uk for longer than 6 months. Revoking a visa after someone has given birth would make no difference to that.

YANBU. We have a research student who is due to give birth in a couple of months. She would like to intercalate for three months and then resume her studies. Her attendance at university is regular but infrequent - she sees her supervisors once a month (as per our regulations) and is making fantastic progress towards her PhD. Under the UKBA rules, she may not intercalate without risking her future studies. All she wants is a couple of months to give birth/recover without disadvantaging her studies. (If she intercalated for 3 months she would have that period added to her registration, so she could get additional time at the end to complete). She is 32 years old, married about 18 months ago and has no intention of staying long term in the UK. The pregnancy was unplanned, and she feels strongly about abortion. She is being penalised for being female and foreign IMO. A UK student could intercalate for a year without penalty and a male overseas student whose partner was having a baby wouldn't be affected at all by the UKBA's regulations.

Who's paying for the anti natal care of these women?

That'll be the taxpayer then.....

MrsPeter You are spot on.

That'll be the taxpayer then.....

Yes that's right. I don't have a problem with that at all. We're talking about very small numbers, and international students as a group bring in billions of pounds to our country. They also create jobs for people who then pay taxes...

Jibby - what kind of numbers are being effected and has there been any research into this? Is there a split between institutions and courses? London Metropolitan is in serious financial trouble ( they had staff redundancies, course reductions) because of student absentism and the institution still keeping them on the register. I would imagine plenty of universities/colleges are very reluctant to stretch the parameters of the visa for this very reason - they get audited, fined and they have to payback the government.
However, whilst I symperthise with accidental pregnancies. If I had battled to get a visa, the money together to pay for the very expensive tuition, I would be doing my upmost not to get pregnant. I did get pregnant during my degree. I had to defer for a year, there was no way I could have coped with a new born, the commute, baby brain and studying. I was lucky, I had my DH - what if there was no support network, different country, language etc...