to think that motorbike racer who died racing was unfair on his DCs?

[TheEpilator]

Watched a film with DH the other night about the Isle of Man TT motorbike race and couldn't believe the ludicrous risks the racers took to partake in this event, during which it seems several people die each year.

Some of them (including one of the racers who died) had young DCs and I said that their fun shouldn't be at the expense of their families' happiness.

DH thinks I am unreasonable and used the old line "he could get hit by a bus tomorrow, at least he died doing what he loved". I think the guy who died (and anyone taking part in such dangerous pursuits for fun) was being quite selfish to deprive his DCs of their dad just so that he could have the thrill of the race. DH asked me to canvas your opinions.

Whose side are you on - mine or his?!...

I knew somebody would bring Alison Hargreaves in to this!

IMO your duty as a parent is to bring your children up as well as you can, giving them love and security and inspiration. None of that requires you to stop doing things you find pleasurable, profitable and stimulating unless you choose to do so. I am absolutely sure that whatever choice you make it's between you and your kids and nobody else. People standing on the sidelines criticising your choice isn't helpful.

Agree that a lot of the riders in the TT are amateurs. They camp up at the Grandstand, as well as being locals who have come up via the Manx Southern Hundred and Grand Prix. The course is danegrous because it is a road race - public roads, some very narrow, with tight corners and blind bends. This was all well and good when the TT was set up (the Manx Government was prepared to close the roads for the races) when bikes had a maximum speed of about 35mph. Now, as Vasilia said I think, it's 200mph.

The Manx Government has made safety impovements but yes, a lot of the Manx people are getting sick of the carnage.

Also - and this is really important - some years more bike fans are killed riding around the Isle of Man than TT riders. (There's no speed limit up on the mountain stretch - or there wasn't when I was last there.)

I think that the bikes have outgrown the course.

It's an ongoing debate about the duty of care owed to the riders.

I think you are right Maryz.

I thought I was being brave going up Hellvelyn by myself but planned everything and looked at all the risks (weather, striding edge, time it was gong to take, route plans etc) but K2 solo not a chance ( even if I was fit and had a healthy sponsorship deal)

I haven't rode a motorbike for about 15 years and would love to again and I so get the thrill.

I used to love going on the back of motor bikes with the lads when I was at school and love going down 'The Tap and to the 'Letters' with all the bikers.
Even when one of the girls came off the motorbike near (I think ) Mickle Trafford and died it didn't put me off.

I had a go at Paragliding the other year and people keep going on about how 'brave' I was but again I weighed up the risks. The guy that took me had children, it was his buisness, he talked about all the safety stuff before hand and gave me the opportunity to check everything out.

I want to look back and think that was fun or if I die doing them sort of things, well I can think of worse deaths tbh.

my dad lost his Mum at a young age due to a calculated risk (they lived in a bit of the world that was deemed as dangerous, she was killed). He chose to change his lifestyle(alcohol) when he had us as kids as didnt want us to experience what he did.

It's not about wrapping yourself in cotton wool, taking no risks and being bored. It's about not taking stupidly extremely high risks for no good reason and putting your DC in a position where the likelihood they'll end up motherless is pretty high.

I take risks. I drive every day. I even break the speed limit sometimes. What I don't do is take my seatbelt off and drive 150mph down a windy road in the dark.

Thanks vasilisa. Ds1 is now the age I was when I lost my mother and I look at him and can't possibly comprehend taking huge risks for kicks.

I agree flowery.

You know, MN really attracts a wide range of people. On the one hand you have threads where people say you can never leave your children alone for a minute because of the dangers, and you must never let them watch tv or drink a fruitshoot, and then on the other you have a thread like this where people say it's fine for a parent to put themselves at very high risk and court death because otherwise life would be boring!

Linerunner, I was looking for stats on how many died and one year there were 7 fatalities, but 4 of those were fans 'having a go' not pro racers. Even so its a pretty high death rate for a fortnight on one small island, which is what makes me wonder why its all worth it!

Hathorinareddress, I suppose a lot of racers, and sports enthusiasts in general, come from a family where the sport is something they all enjoy together and I suppose that is why the risks are 'normalised', as its something they've all grown up with.

I can see why people might not want to think "what if..." all the time, but as a parent everything I do is considered with the welfare of my DCs firmly at the forefront - yes even like Flowery, crossing a road or driving. The thought of not being here to see my precious DCs grow up (unless through accident or illness I can possibly avoid it) is too much to contemplate.

I'm on your DH's side. If we can't continue to be ourselves when we have children life isn't be worth living imo. It also occurs to me that there are a hell of a lot of parents who carry out risky tasks day in, day out, from the police officer and firefighter to the helicopter pilot. What's the saying, 'a man who's afraid to die is afraid to live', or something?

On the subject of the TT specifically, I agree entirely with LineRunner.

I am totally not a risk taker at all so I do struggle to understand the risk-taking mentality. I know a few people who used to be big into motorbikes but all of them have had pretty serious accidents or very scary near misses (including my dad, who used to ride a bike when I was very young) and all of them having given up biking because of that. My friends dad gave up biking when he saw his best friend fall under a truck while they were out together. My uncle was a big risk taker until he very narrowly escaped death in a bike accident, now he drives a car so slowly it's annoying.

I think it's easy to be cavalier about risk until you actually face the prospect of death.

I know Cailin, I thought I'd be on pretty safe ground proving my point to DH on here. I'm very surprised at the majority of posts, but taking it all on board in good spirit.

Like you say, they're usually a very risk-averse bunch - usually too much so for my liking. Maybe this evening they're too busy unwrapping the cotton wool to put their DC's PJs on [wink}

oops

Right. Am going to say exactly what I feel and probably out myself doing so.

I live on the isle of Man and was born here. My Father raced in the TT, as did my younger Brother (my only sibling) and he died doing it.

I utterly defend the the right of any man or woman to race the TT.

It's not true in the slightest to say that most of the people who live on the island don't like the TT. Most people adore it, as it is an amazing experience for two weeks of the year. Yes, there are a minority who dislike it, but as us Manxies say "if you don't like it, there's a boat in the morning"!

Now, with regards to safety, massive amounts have been done over the past 10 years to make it as safe as possible.

In terms of statistics, when you think that around 80 people enter each race (5 solo classes and two sidecar classes), they do on average of 3 laps in a race (and some races are 6 laps), each lap is 37 and 3/4 miles, and they also spend a week practicing for the races. That is a massive amount of miles! Average that over 104 years and the statistics show that it is safer than climbing Everest. But people who climb mountains or sail oceans are just as reckless but somehow get applauded for it (not to mention OBEs etc!).

But at the end of the day, when you have people doing laps of 37 and 3/4 miles at an average of 130 miles an hour, you cannot make it perfectly safe. and the riders know this.

No one ever, ever does the TT without knowing this. To even get a licence for the course, you have to have raced in a specific number of other events to qualify enough "signatures". As such, no ones family is getting a shock when their partner rocks up at Glencruchery Road to head off. They are already with a known racer. And you had to assume they have accepted that fact and the dangers that go with it.

If you have watched the film (about 2010's races), then surely Bridgit Dobbs feelings were clear - she knew the risks and although she is obviously sad Dobbsy died, she still loves the island and the TT. I thought she put it extremely well. Again, I speak as someone who has lost their only brother in the TT races

Sure, I'd rather my brother were alive today, but he died fulfilling his life's dream - no exaggeration. He would have honestly hated being hit by a bus, or getting cancer or something instead - he told me this himself.

Life is far too regulated nowadays - I love that my homeland allows people to stick two fingers up to that and go he'll for leather if they choose. And it is a choice - some of the best riders in the world (Valentino Rossi amongst them!) have admitted that it take massive balls to race the TT and that they wouldn't dare do it.

Now - people who don't watch out for bikers when they drive.....that's a whole other fucking subject.

Alison Hargreaves was a professional climber - it was how she and her husband supported their family. She was working to support her children when she died.

I am a horserider and personally found I lost a lot of my gung ho confidence, post children. But this was a physical reaction, not a calculated decision to reduce risk for the sake of my children.

I know some people will judge how I live my life - riding is a risk sport and I broke my leg a couple of years ago. But sitting in front of the TV like a fat pudding with all the associated health risks is a worse example, as far as I am concerned.

What Floydie said!!

But ithaka, it's not a choice between taking risks and being a "fat pudding" - I'm certainly not a "fat pudding."

Hi Floydie, I'm very sorry you lost your brother.

Also, when you consider the fact that the population of the island almost doubles for a fortnight, of course there are goibgto be incidents. In a population of a town of say 100,000, there are accidents every week - but these aren't headlines.

Not all of them should even be classes as "TT week deaths". For example, last year an older manx resident was killed on his motorbike in the south of the island (no where near the course). He used his bike everyday and was a very experienced rider. He was killed because someone in a car decided to do an illegal u-turn in a stupid place. In no way is that related to the TT. A week later and it would not have been classed as a "TT death". Another older man died because he had a heart attack whilst on his bike.

Hardly the "need for speed" dickheads. Although, obviously we do get them.

As for near death experiences putting people off - didn't stop Connor Cummins or Guy Martin

'But ithaka, it's not a choice between taking risks and being a "fat pudding" - I'm certainly not a "fat pudding."'

The point I was trying to make is that there are so many ways we can judge each other, but we can only live our lives in a way that feels right for us. Horse riding feels right to me, but I know others judge me for competing and taking risks. However, I probably secretly judge other people for not being as fun and active as me - but presumably they don't want thrills, so it is easy for them to live a sedate life. We are all different.

Sorry about your brother Floydie, I bet he was wonderful.

I agree with your DH.
DH and I both ride, I have a 600cc sports bike, It doesnt mean I love my DS less than other mum, It has been part of me for years.
We hope DS follows in our love for bikes and would love him to compete from a young age or at least ride early.

Thanks for the info Floydie and I do agree it takes balls. FWIW I think climbing Everest is pretty pointless too and wouldn't think anyone who died doing it was a hero! Seems just as daft.

I know what you're saying about Dobbsy's wife - I couldn't understand how accepting she was of it, almost as if she'd been expecting it at some point, it was inevitable and she was prepared (which she probably was). I just really felt for those little boys and what they'll miss out on

So sorry about your brother and all those on here who have lost loved ones. Both my parents died in their 50s of cancer and I suppose given a choice, maybe they would have been better dying in a more exciting fun way.

But even as an adult I feel their absence in my life now and as a kid it must be hard to know that your parent's death was totally avoidable - I don't buy all this crap about 'your time being up' either. (BTW they both smoked and i used to cry myself to sleep at night 'knowing' that it would kill them both, so maybe that's where I get the feeling that parents need to look after themselves for the sake of their kids?)

I can't see how being paid to climb dangerous mountains (or whatever high risk activity it might be) makes it any better? Unless the idea is there was a lack of choice involved?

I would imagine high risk activities are something people do for love, not for the money, and getting paid for it would enable them to do what they love rather than having to give it up and get a more normal job.

So unless people are applying for hundreds of safe jobs and only being offered those that involve very high risk, that argument doesn't hold water imo.

ithaka, I am that fat pudding, so at this point I'll bow out gracefully, thank you all for your insight and maybe see you at the TT one year Floydie (spectating from a very safe vantage point surrounded by large cushions and bubble wrap!)

The point about Alison Hargreaves is that was how she made a living and supported her family, it wasn't just a bit of 'fun', it was her life.

I am not sure what other jobs she may have been qualified to do, but she didn't choose to do them and why should she when she was so successful and acclaimed in her chosen field. She was doing what she loved and supporting her family, which is pretty cool.

I do not think I would make her choices, but that does not mean I can't respect them.