Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

Possibly some of you only have a very sketchy idea of what feminism does. Feminism combats male harm to and oppression of women - that's its job. It is perfectly reasonable to identify patterns of behaviour amongst certain men that harm women and challenge them.

Nyac - but i interpreted your previous posts as not distinguishing between men and 'certain men' and I think many others on this thread seem to have done the same.

How would we identify these 'certain men' - is there a way to categorise them maybe?

And what about patterns of behaviour amongst certain women that harm men? to perpetuate the myth that all men are misogynistic bastards who shag prostitutes given even a smidge of an opportunity?

The feminist texts that I studied at university didn't tell me that I should make sweeping generalisations about men. They railed against inequality and ill-perceived judgements. Not much difference between that and the way most of us have responded to the so-called "feminist" comments you have made NYAC.

The shame of it is that we could have had a serious and adult conversation about the sex industry and the exploitation of children, women and men within it. Instead it got sidetracked because we were accused of being against the sisterhood for daring to argue that somebody doesn't have the right to ask personal non-work related questions of a co-worker and that not all men going to Amsterdam for a weekend want to have sex with a prostitute.

It is perfectly reasonable to identify patterns of behaviour amongst certain men that harm women and challenge them

It isn't reasonable to interrogate people about what they do on holiday. If they don't make demeaning comments or tell sordid stories in front of female co workers and don't make those co workers uncomfortable that's as far as it should go.

we were accused of being against the sisterhood for daring to argue that somebody doesn't have the right to ask personal non-work related questions of a co-worker and that not all men going to Amsterdam for a weekend want to have sex with a prostitute

Spot on.

Weekend in amsterdam? They might be visiting the Anne Frank museum, taking cycle rides around the tulip fields. But they are probabyl going for the live sex shows, legalised cannabis and drink - i rather wish i was going with them.

OP please, i would keep my opinions about this to myself at work if i were you - it is totally up to them what they do in their spare time.

oh and the drink and drugs is ok, but the sex element isn't???

I'm sorry that your co-workers sound like a bunch of sexist pricks, becaues you shoudlnt have to even notice that in the work place but visiting amsterdam does not make you a mysoginist - i'd be quite happy for my DP to visit amsterdam and go to sex shows, in fact do what he darned well pleases short of having sex with a prostitute. I would however want to be told in torrid detail exactly what he did get up too

Sexist mofos going to a city know for it's rampant, open sale of female bodies? Tons of trafficking? Even if they don't buy any women, they will still get more women-as-objects ideas into their tiny little brains. Thus making them even worse for women to work together with.

Its the whacking great generalisations and assumptions that ARE EQUALLY SEXIST that are the problem on this thread. And equally need to be challenged.

You do not combat sexism by being sexist yourself. It creates alienation and breaks the boundaries of cooperation and channels of communication. You can not change a democratic society easily without consensus. Consensus relies on agreed and compromised gradual change.

Credit men with intelligence and who don't act in this way and don't tar them with the brush and they will support you more. And really getting men to challenge other men's behaviour is the best way forward on this subject. Not enforcing something on them or making judgmental remarks, so they don't really understand the underlying reasons about why something is bad. Even men who occasionally are guilty of making the odd ill advised or thought out remark. There is a massive, massive differences between a man making a sexist remark and actually hating women. Its ignorance rather than hate. Thats one of the things I really don't get on this thread. That and the venomous generalisations.

It shows a lack of understanding and an inability to find common ground or see issues as affecting society as a whole. Constantly drawing the line that men behave like this doesn't stop it, it actually helps to reinforces it imho.

Just out of interest, Woundupleaf is a feminist, but also a bloke who has been to sex shows. Anyone else on this thread want to own up to a Y chromosome?

And what has that got to do with the price of fish (or indeed anything else)? In the interests of full disclosure, IAALOTW was there too and she made me go and I didn't enjoy it anyway :(

Does it matter if they have XX or XY chromosomes? Or even XXY? Does that make their opinion any less or more in value?

And there are also women on this thread who have admitted to having been to sex shows in Amsterdam too.

Not that it makes any difference, but I am female.

It's not work related.

It will impact on their treatment of you in the workplace than them going on holiday

A twat is a twat is a twat.

Going to Amsterdam on a stag do with or without prostitutes is unlikely to change that.

And it is absolutely none of your business.

Many thanks MrGin. Unfortunately, a lot of the radfeminists on here are highly skilled in 'shouting down' the opposition, if there ever is any. You can rest assured that there are many women on here who feel the same way I do, as you've seen on this thread, sanity does prevail.

I take the RadFem views very personally, as a mum to two young sons. It pains me more than I can say that there is a movement that hates them purely on the basis of what they have between their legs. I will never, ever allow someone to tell me that my sons are sub-human. Or try to take away their right to a loving sexual relationship, or tell them that if they experience domestic assault it's less important. Never.

I don't deny that feminism has it's place. I don't hate feminism or feminists, but they make me despair at times.

I don't hate men..I'm very happily married

isnt that on a par with

"I am not racist/homophobic.... some of my best friends are black/gay"

I have read plenty of the feminists posts to believe that they may well be married, but it is pretty clear who wears the trousers!!!

Wow fuck me, I had no idea feminism could be so radical/bonkers. Way to make women look daft ladies.

Slow hand clap.

Sig, if anyone judges your sons based on such bollocks they don't deserve a voice in modern society. Fcking warped. We are equals. Men, women, we are entitled to our own private lives, and if lived within the Law nobody has a right to condemn us for our choices. As far as I know, travel to holland is legal.

and catching up with this even further...

"Prague has 70 brothels and numerous strip clubs. It is not hard to find some of the half a million stag visitors, many British, that the Prague tourist board say visit every year. I found them at every sex establishment I went to."

Who the fuck would you expect to find in a "sex establishment".. it isnt going to be someone who has gone there to see the gorgeous architecture, or the shops or the restaurants, is it....

I do love reporters that put ridiculous slants on their clearly biased tales.

Just because they go to amsterdam doesnt mean they are shagging prostitutes.

But if they were I would absolutely hate to work or speak to any men single or otherwise that would.

would you speak to a man if he was single and had a one night stand every weekend?

I doubt it squeaky. They'd probably string him up by the nuts from the Town Sq statue and get the girl into counselling before she could say 'wet spot'.

Thanks coral .

After my rant I feel I should point out that I don't disagree with all feminism, not at all. Some have some very valid points and I do listen.

The problem is that feminism is an umbrella term for very different feminist views, so there is a tendancy to lump the good with the bad.

Getting back to the topic of this thread. I don't subscribe to the view that all men who visit strip clubs hate women, that's a bizarre thing to say. They probably are objectifying them, but who's to say the women don't want to be objectified? We don't know.

there are very very few people who hold these rather radical beliefs and really what impact do they have on any of us but it makes for great feminism bashing doesn?t it

on the other hand if it wasn't for those mad radical man hating women we would not have the vote, our husbands could still beat and rape us if they so wished, we would not be to have the choice of having a career and so on

no i do not agree with every feminist but thank fuck there have been women who have been brave enough to fight and protest for my freedom, they would have seemed crazy too in their time

on the other hand if it wasn't for those mad radical man hating women we would not have the vote, our husbands could still beat and rape us if they so wished, we would not be to have the choice of having a career and so on

and how many years ago was that??? none of the posters who so spectacularly fail to hide their utter disdain at the males of the species were personably responsible for any of it..

I once considered myself as having feminist values until I stumbled upon this site, and soon realised that I dont, and by god I am so glad I dont as well, if some of the feminists on here are anything to go by...

"I take the RadFem views very personally, as a mum to two young sons. It pains me more than I can say that there is a movement that hates them purely on the basis of what they have between their legs. I will never, ever allow someone to tell me that my sons are sub-human. Or try to take away their right to a loving sexual relationship, or tell them that if they experience domestic assault it's less important. Never.

I don't deny that feminism has it's place. I don't hate feminism or feminists, but they make me despair at times."

This is a complete misrepresentation of feminism. Feminism looks at power structures and power dynamics between men and women, and the lack of power that women have and the ways that men (as a group) have ensured that's the case in order that they can maintain social, political and economic dominance over women.

It doesn't judge men for what's "between their legs" or hate them (men do that to women when they beat us, rape us, prostitute us, marry us at 10, sexually abuse us, treat us as second class citizens and so on mind you), it examines aggregate male behaviour and its impact on women and girls. It's a liberation movement and it is a fine thing.

Frankly it's bizarre that you'd have made that speech on this particular thread - about a group of sleazy men off to Amsterdam on a stag weekend, when it's common knowledge what sort of things blokes like that get up to when they are there, and anyone who wasn't being completely disingenuous about it would acknowledge it. To try and dress up your arguments, or rather lack of arguments, on this thread as some kind of principled stand doesn't reflect either what you've posted nor does it engage with the substance of this thread. It's just odd really. Are you really arguing that men's sexual exploitation of women is a principled stand?

Twenty years ago in the UK men could legally rape their wives. That's a blink of an eye in terms of human history. Women are still owned by men in some parts of the world.

well the law on a man raping his wife only changed about 20 years ago - that is here in the uk. women not much older than myself (39) had to fight for that

the point i was making is that these women fighting for what is a human right were seem as mad crazy man haters why simply becasue they are women

and really you do not hold femisinst values serioulsy? you do not see yourself and feel you should be treated as an equal to a man, i find that hard to beleive

It's also been said before, but claiming that criticising the groups of men who do behave like this, is somehow man-hating appears to be an argument that all men act like the sleazeoids you get on stag weekends in Amsterdam.

Thing is they don't. Using all men as a defense for these mens' disgraceful behaviour is dishonest.