Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

I don't think you really need to explain yourself Sigmund.

Like I pointed out before there are very similar parallels with other forms of extremism.

Freudian. Even the suffragettes had very different views on how they could advance the aims of women. Changes were thought about before militant tactics were used (then not followed through at the last minute by the government). Then the first world war came along and there was a labour shortage.

I think it is very debatable what tactics and what approach made the biggest difference in changing rights for women. The fact the suffragette movement fractured so much just highlights this too. And I do think that the aims of a lot of the suffragettes are very removed from the aims of radical feminists today.

[Quote]: "Feminism looks at power structures and power dynamics between men and women, and the lack of power that women have and the ways that men (as a group) have ensured that's the case in order that they can maintain social, political and economic dominance over women. " [end quote]

Then that brand of feminism is part of the problem, not the solution. Surely, feminism should strive towards society evaluating everyone as an individual, irrespective of gender, colour, lifestyle choice or any other attribute.

What you seem to be promoting there is a perpetuation of the 'them and us' situation whereby a person's gender becomes MORE relevant in assessment and hence stereotyping, not less.

I am an individual, what right do you have to assume I've got anything in common with 50% of the population purely because of my gender? Also, what right do you have to assume that I DON'T have things in common with the other 50%. A twat is a twat because of who they are, not because of any category that you choose to put them in.

'there are very very few people who hold these rather radical beliefs and really what impact do they have on any of us but it makes for great feminism bashing doesn?t it'

Erm...that's simply not true. The web has many RadFem sites. There are many RadFems. But yes, not as significant as the majority of feminists probably.

I thought I'd just explained that I don't believe all feminism to be the same.

I'm not feminism bashing. I'm taking issue with various points rather than blindly believing what I'm told.

Winds me up no end when I hear women talking about women's lack of power. I don't lack power. I don't find being a woman a burden or a handicap. I honestly think that the very radical views damage feminism as people mistakenly think its representative if the mainstream and this is why you get women saying they don't line feminism. As I said in the other thread it would be like saying you don't like Christianity because you find the westboro Baptists offensive. It's not feminism people dislike its the more extremist interpretation that people struggle with.

'on the other hand if it wasn't for those mad radical man hating women we would not have the vote, our husbands could still beat and rape us if they so wished, we would not be to have the choice of having a career and so on'

You know full well they're not in the same league as todays RadFems. Poor argument.

'Frankly it's bizarre that you'd have made that speech on this particular thread - about a group of sleazy men off to Amsterdam on a stag weekend, when it's common knowledge what sort of things blokes like that get up to when they are there, and anyone who wasn't being completely disingenuous about it would acknowledge it. To try and dress up your arguments, or rather lack of arguments, on this thread as some kind of principled stand doesn't reflect either what you've posted nor does it engage with the substance of this thread. It's just odd really. Are you really arguing that men's sexual exploitation of women is a principled stand?'

I was responding to a poster. The thread has derailed from the topic a bit. And frankly Nyac, I can make a speech wherever I bloody well like. Just the same as you do.

Today's radical feminists' main purpose is ending male violence against women - the sex industry (porn and prostitution), rape, domestic violence and child sexual abuse.

These are excellent things to be aiming for.

Today's radical feminists bring us Rape Crisis, Women's Aid, Reclaim the Night Marches, Million Women Rise, the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, Stop Porn Culture, the Poppy Project amongst other things.

The sex industry on the other hand brings us products like "cum guzzling anal teenage wh*res". That's how they view the women they exploit and how they market their products to their customers.

I'm glad I'm on the side I'm on. I feel your criticisms are pointing in the wrong direction SF. If you're concerned about harm to your sons, look at the sex industry because it is telling your sons that men behave like this and that this is how women should be treated, neither of which is true. They don't deserve to grow up in a degraded society like the one we're living in at the moment.

And I can have an opinion about it SF. Which I just did. Hope you enjoyed hearing it. :)

you are missing the point i am making

when any talk of femenisim comes up the radical man haters are mentioned and the damage they do really what damage is this? i do not fear their views will have an impact on my son

but we can celebrate those that were seen as mad man haters of the past (and not so distant past) a women challanging views within society will always be viewed as radical even when what they are fighting for is a human right

and really you do not hold femisinst values serioulsy? you do not see yourself and feel you should be treated as an equal to a man, i find that hard to beleive

I KNOW I am equal to any man.. I just dont think that I am superior to men. I work in a male dominated industry, and I expect respect and to be treated as any man would be. I certainly dont think because I am a woman that men are inferior to me. I do not hold with the belief that all men are obsessed with sex, porn and the "objectification" of women... whilst at the same time parading down the road dressed in skimpy clothes just to prove my point..

Today's radical feminists bring us Rape Crisis, Women's Aid, Reclaim the Night Marches, Million Women Rise, the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, Stop Porn Culture, the Poppy Project amongst other things.

These things are not the exclusive preserve of radical feminists. Many non radical people are invovled in those causes

'It doesn't judge men for what's "between their legs" or hate them (men do that to women when they beat us, rape us, prostitute us, marry us at 10, sexually abuse us, treat us as second class citizens and so on mind you)'

Do you think men aren't beaten, raped, prostituted, married off young, sexually abused and treated as second class citizens? Ever?

I'll say it again. I do not deny that women suffer, but it is bullshit to assume that men do not experience these things, and that fact that MORE women suffer from these things does not make it worse.

I would fight for the right for BOTH sexes suffering to be AS important as each other.

[quote:] I would fight for the right for BOTH sexes suffering to be AS important as each other. [/quote]

Surely fighting to avoid suffering irrespective of sex is even better?

Freudian - If you make generalisations that aren't accurate based on gender you are opening yourself up to it though. You can make a good point on a subject and the trafficking of women and prostitution WITHOUT doing that or without resorting to comments about the size of men's brains or indeed their penises. You alienate the men who don't fall into that category and who would otherwise be sympathetic of what you say. That really isn't helping anyone.

I think its important to look at the language some of the rad fems are using and the tactics they are using to undermine and belittle other brands of feminism because they don't agree with it. I personally think its becoming very rife and acceptable to do this on MN and to make these generalisations. And I think thats a problem.

Yes some men have those things done to them. Overwhelmingly by other men. It doesn't happen on the scale of what men do to women and girls though.

"I would fight for the right for BOTH sexes suffering to be AS important as each other."

Well that's up to you, but why not get out of the way of those of us saying that we are dealing with men's oppression of women. Neither approach is wrong. If you want to put your energy into that then go ahead.

From a femnist point of view however sexual exploitation is overwhelmingly gendered - male sexual exploitation of women and girls and thus needs to be dealt with in that context. I don't see what your problem with that is.

Yes, those are great things to be aiming for, of course. But it doesn't tell the whole story though does it. RadFems hate men.

I accept the effect the porn industry may have on my son's attitude towards sex. All I can do is have frank discussions with them about it as they become older.

'Surely fighting to avoid suffering irrespective of sex is even better?'

Yes. Better.

'Well that's up to you, but why not get out of the way of those of us saying that we are dealing with men's oppression of women'

Because you say ALL men repress women. And that is not true.

And you seem to say all women are oppressed. Which is also not true. There seems to be little celebration of being female which I find depressing

"RadFems hate men."

Please stop saying that. It's not true.

Radical feminists, and indeed most feminists hate men who harm women. That isn't the same as hating men.

And seriously once again, on a thread about a bunch of sleazoids who are on their way to Amsterdam to possibly rape a few trafficked women there, and at the very least make good use of the various opportunities the sex industry there offers, your "rad fems hate men" claims sound very off key.

Do you give any kind of a thought to the women in Amsterdam who are very likely to have been trafficked from Eastern Europe or Africa or the Far East who are having to service disgusting men from stag parties every weekend and what it must be like for them. I just don't understand how you can ignore that in favour of rad fem bashing. It doesn't make sense to me.

Men as a group oppress women and have done for millennia. It's demonstrable. That doesn't mean every individual man does, but all men benefit from the power that men as a group have over women. You need to be able to separate out the individual from structural analysis.

For example male power over women is why no-mark men on stag weekends can go to places like Amsterdam to sexually exploit vulnerable women in the sex industry. Patriarchy creates a system like that for them. Most men don't make use of it but unfortunately some do and they need to be condemned (and stopped with laws criminalising their behaviour).

Much as I'd like to continue this debate, I have to go. If this thread is still active tomorrow I'll answer you.

but that is what being a feminist is about being an equal, being in control of your life you feel it and within your life you are many women do not because in their life they have not been able to be, the career they are in is still male dominated and they have to prove themselves because they are women, the family and culture they have grown in up in. and you have been able to do that because of feminist of the past

i have not felt unequal but do i think we live in an equal society when we have only had one female prime minister, the law courts and law makers are overwhelmingly predominately men, i could go on

we are getting there

sure freudian but I don't have a problem with feminism. I am a feminist. I do have a problem with some of the more extremist feminist views that get aired which I don't think are helpful

For example male power over women is why no-mark men on stag weekends can go to places like Amsterdam to sexually exploit vulnerable women in the sex industry. Patriarchy creates a system like that for them. Most men don't make use of it but unfortunately some do and they need to be condemned (and stopped with laws criminalising their behaviour).

Women are equally free to go on hen parties, and frequently do so. They go to Amsterdam, Prague and many other cities in the world. The behaviour of women on hen parties is certainly equally as lewd if not more so than their male counterparts on many occasions.

Porn and sex are something that both male AND females are free to have an interest in if they wish. I agree that there should be no trafficking, and nobody should be forced into it, but there are women involved in the illegal side of it, it is not just down to men alone. Anyone should be able to work in the porn industry if that is what they want to do by choice. Nobody should be forced to do so.