Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

Calling someone a manhater is a personal attack and comes a lot closer to dogmatism in an argument than anything I've said ujjayi.

I think you'll find I have every right to voice my opinion here and make the statements I have made, as you have the right to disagree with them as you have been doing.

Why would you think I don't have the "right"? That's an odd thing to say.

'I don't think anybody thinks that. The argument is that misgoynistic men who enjoy sexually objectifying women, when they arrange stag weekends to Amsterdam of all places, are likely to be availing themselves of the services on offer. '

I know I keep saying this. What if some of the women want to be objectified? There are a lot of women out there who enjoy being objectified. What do you say to them? What is your cause? What do you think of the women who don't agree with you?

And if she asks them and they say yes, then what should she do?

'Maybe she wants to assess exactly how much they hate women. Paying to use a prostitute is off the scale.'

Ugh, posted to soon..

I'm sorry but she has no right to ask a co-worker who they have sex with!

Seriously? WTAF?

I would go loopy if someone had the audacity to ask me about my sex life in this context.

As charming as this little exchange has been, it is time to walk away now.

Right...but Nyac, you said

'Maybe she wants to assess exactly how much they hate women. Paying to use a prostitute is off the scale.'

Saying that the Op's collegues are women haters, as a statement of fact. Not IF they hate women, but how much. So you yourself called them women haters. It's your opinion, yes? So how can you get the hump when someone else, in their opinion, says similar about you?

It's not simply their sex life, it's public sexual exploitation of women. It's not private, men who do this are buying women who are publicly for sale. They have no right to anonymity or secrecy about it. Like I said, people know what goes on on stag weekends in Amsterdam, but people are too cowardly to confront the men who do these things.

Hopefully the rest of Europe will follow the Nordic model and not only will men who do this not have the right to privacy around their actions, they will also be prosecuted for committing the crime that paying to use another human being's body actually is.

Israel and France are currently considering making paying for sex illegal. The momentum in this direction is growing.

I didn't get the hump for someone voicing their opinion Sigmund. Where are you getting that from?

Oh I see what you mean. I was objecting to being insulted on this thread. It's against the rules. It's not against any rules to hold the opinion that men who pay to use women's bodies for sex hate them.

tbh - if this situation played out in my workplace I would not look favourably on an employee asking another employee unwanted questions about their sex life. If it was persistent I would treat it as harrasment

I obviously wouldn't look favourably on an employee who used prostitues but it would not be a work issue (unless it took place on a work trip or in someway became public knowledge and I could get them on bringing the compamy into disrepute or something)

Yes, and making it illegal will put a stop to it won't it?? FGS. All that achieves is to push it underground, where there is less regulation and less safety for the women involved. Brilliant.

Do you really think there are no prostitutes in Sweden? Surely you can't be that naive. Drugs are illegal, dogfighting is illegal, assault is illegal, underage drinking is illegal...do you see any evidence that these things don't happen.

Seriously. Be careful what you wish for.

The english language is a wonderful thing. To say someone 'comes across' as something is an entirely different thing to saying they 'are' one.

If the way you come across is detrimental to your argument, its an important to know this so you can express the same view in a fashion that doesn't piss others off and make you look bad in the process.

Perhaps you could try and take it as the way it was intended rather than throwing toys out of the pram. As a constructive point to aid your argument.

sigh

Nyac...you're still attacking them. Just because you aren't naming them doesn't make it less of an attack.

Why do you care Sigmund. Are you actually defending men who go to Amsterdam to pay women for sex. If they are doing this, they're women-haters. Do you disagree?

YAAW, yes the English language is a wonderful thing. You can manipulate it so you can insult someone and then claim that's not what you're doing. From your argument if I tell you that you're coming across as an x, y or z, does that mean you won't mind? I don't think I'll bother though because I know it would be a disguised personal attack and bloody rude. Focus on the arguments not on the people.

I was Nyac. And I wasn't making a personal attack. Not even a passive aggressive disguised one. I am not one for manipulation, as I don't feel I need to do that. I think I can make a strong enough argument without the need for that.

But whatever. Take it how you like. Pointless to argue as I said before.

Nyac - answer my post at 18:35:05 and i'll answer yours.

To say someone 'comes across' as something is an entirely different thing to saying they 'are' one

Of course it is.

I'm also at Nyac thinking the OP has the right to make enquiries about others' activities while on holiday.

If the men don't show her disrespect by discussing the holiday and any possible episodes demeaning to women that is quite reasonable in my view. I also know Amsterdam very well and it's certainly not a foregone conclusion that they'll be visiting prostitutes.

Oh wow I can't believe how many aggressive and attacking comments OP is getting.

OP YANBU x20000

Sexist mofos going to a city know for it's rampant, open sale of female bodies? Tons of trafficking? Even if they don't buy any women, they will still get more women-as-objects ideas into their tiny little brains. Thus making them even worse for women to work together with.

< faith in MN restored >

Can I just say thanks, as part of a minority on MN ( cue tiny violin music .... ) who regularly gets accused of awful , terrible things, by another minority on MN , purely by virtue of being a man. it's good to see sanity prevails on MN.

Sigmunda I admire you're stamina and articulation.

Your = you're ( d'oh )

Some on here have leapt to the conclusion that because men are going In a group to Amsterdam that they will automatically sleep with a prostitute etc. isn't this assumption based on preconceived notions of a group (i.e. a value judgement based upon identifying individuals as a member of a group)?

How is that behaviour different to what feminism should be combatting - I.e. assuming behaviour or other attributes from a person based solely on their membership of a group)?

Couldn't that be perceived to be just a little hypocritical?

WoundUpLeaf - you have managed to succinctly express exactly what my more wordy and irate posts were trying to achieve earlier. Thank you.

Ujjayi - You've just made me happy, I've never been accused of being succinct before :)

This is serious. cardgames seems to be saying that anyone visiting a city where dodgy stuff might go on is in some way a collaborator and should be socially shunned for evermore. I'm sure that's absolutely right.
Just for enlightenment - where then would it be ok to go? You know - just so that one doesn't create a sit-u-a-tion.