Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

Radical feminists pee in a lot of cheerio's. But it was a mistake to pee in mine.

How did this translate into my hating men? Is it because i used the 'f' word in my opening post?I don't hate men..I'm very happily married, and most of those I work with are great. Even those who I've spoken to for going too far in voicing unsavoury opinions have plenty of other redeeming features.

Yes, I have been to Amsterdam but I do know for certain that places like the Anne Frank house and Van Goch museum are not going to be on the itinerary on this trip.

Thanks for the responses...it's been interesting but won't make any difference to how I deal with this in work, because there is nothing to deal with..the post was a sharing of private thoughts.

And thanks HardCheese..I shall continue to challenge misogynist and homophobic behaviour. I am also involved in projects to improve diversity, and most of the team are supportive of these.

cathkidstonerefusnik, I think it got side tracked by someone insisting that the only reason men go on stag dos to Amsterdam is due to the sex trade there. And refusing to listen to anyone who happens to disagree and then rather patronisingly called them all naive and stupid. Which was somewhat frustrating.

There does need to be balance in the argument that not all men are like that and that all men are misogynist. They are not. Views that suggest they are need to be challenged just as much as misogynist views as they are just as bigoted and just as sexist. I do not deny that those things do happen, but it is a only a possibility that needs to be put into context of other possibilities rather than being labelled as a certainty. Assumptions and stereotypes do no one any great favours.

The biggest and most important thing is that your workplace support your position and have acted to protect you. Keep that in mind.

OP, I can understand that you find misogynistic behaviour of co-workers stressful but you only have a right to complain about those behaviours which directly affect you. If prior to the trip, on their return, they openly discuss events which you deem offensive only then can you make it your issue.

BTW, I do think you have a very poor view of Amsterdam. My DH was born and grew up there. My BIL still lives there with SIL and DN. There is far more to the city than hookers and hash. Sure, it sounds like these guys are probably not going to the Rijks Museum but I reckon quite often this type of bloke is all talk and probably would feel quite intimidated in the presence of one of these girls. It's one thing gawping at the windows...quite another to go through the door.

NYAC - you say that stag weekenders are more likely to use prostitute services. Think most prostitutes would disagree in Amsterdam given how busy they are during business conferences...and having spent many a long weekend in the city, I don't believe it was stags circling the block near BILs house in their cars on a Monday morning waiting for the girls to reappear in the windows.

Some surprising fellas visit prostitutes in Amsterdam. A good friend of mine confided in my husband that he'd been, whilst on a stag do. I have to say, I've not looked at him in the same way since; I wish I wasn't so judgemental, but there you go. I wouldn't say he was a misogynist though - but does paying for sex make you a misogynist almost by definition?

I don't think that she was saying that ALL men go to Amsterdam to visit prostitutes. She was talking about the specific men in her office, who she knows to be somewhat sexist.

Paying for sex isn't necessarily misogynistic (in my opinion, although many argue that it is) but someone who is sexist is more likely to, I think.

I disagree with squeky that you are PC.
You are one side PC. You assume that they will visit prostitutes because they are men. Wow!

Now if they were talking about visiting prostitutes you would have a point but as it is you just sound like someone with too much time in her hands and too arrogant.

Look what goes on in Amsterdam is not a secret. It's called sex tourism. And it's part of the Dutch economy.

People can shut their eyes and put their fingers in their ears and pretend that this isnt' going on, but the denial just looks ridiculous. There is a huge sex trade in Amsterdam that is partly supported by the stag parties from the UK that visit. Not every man who goes on one will pay for sex but a good number of them do.

SigmundFraud, I don't know why you're having a go at me, but please don't.

I don't think anyone on this thread is in denial about the huge sex trade in Amsterdam. However, I think you will find that there is also a huge sex trade in many major cities. The Dutch system is simply more open in that respect. Does not make it more acceptable or that exploitation is not rife on many levels. However, having lived in Soho for a year, i can tell you that the women may not be sitting in windows but there are plenty of cards on front doors inviting ""gentleman callers" to venture inside.

I also believe that you would have to be at best naive, and at worst sexist, to believe that most stag parties there end with men having sex with prostitutes.

'SigmundFraud, I don't know why you're having a go at me, but please don't.'

Huh?

They're in denial that British stag parties have anything to do with demand for the sex industry in Amsterdam.

"I also believe that you would have to be at best naive, and at worst sexist, to believe that most stag parties there end with men having sex with prostitutes."

I'd say it was you who was being naive thinking that isn't what's going to happen. Especially when we're talking about a group of men who have form for sexual objectification and misogyny towards women. It's not just a random group of men.

Hang on, I haven't actually said that it won't happen. I said that you can't be certain, right here and now, that it will. How does that make me naive? Words and actions are two very separate things. They may all be Charlie Big Bollocks in the office, giving out loads of shit regarding the objectification of women but that doesn't necessarily mean they will pay to sleep with a hooker.

I will also reiterate that there is nothing in this thread to suggest that any other posters are in denial about stag parties contributing to the demand for the sex industry in Amsterdam. They are not saying that it doesn't happen. They are simply saying not every member of a stag party/nor entire party will buy the services on offer.

Anyway, the OP - as I have already said - is not unreasonable to feel creeped out but ultimately as long as it isn't brought into the workplace it really has nothing to do with her. You can't censor what hasn't actually happened yet.

Nyac I still think you can behave in a manner thats sexist and objectifies women and go to Amsterdam and not be going primarily for the sex trade.

More likely yes, but thats still one bloody massive leap from one thing to the next.

The are various levels of sexism and inappropriate behaviour in the workplace. They do not necessarily translate into sleeping with prostitutes.

We don't know exactly what was going on in the office and how bad it is. Plenty of blokes are just ignorant and oblivious to the fact they are being dicks. They shouldn't be, but they are and they do need to be pulled up on it. I'm not going to make excuses for their behaviour - but it is about educating.

But you've already gone off the deep end and put that the OP has a right to know if she's working with a bunch of women haters! I quote:
Maybe she wants to assess exactly how much they hate women. Paying to use a prostitute is off the scale.

Objectifying women isn't necessarily about 'hating women'. Its disrespectful but not necessarily hateful. It is about a certain level of admiration too - which is the opposite of hating - though not the admiration most women really want.

You are making the assumption.

If you go round making assumptions like that you end up alienating people not educating them. You don't get men to see your point. You just come across as being a man hater ultimately.

It's not a massive leap at all. Seriously are you really that much in denial about what these sort of men get up to? Men like this don't go on stag weekends by coincidence, they go because of the easy availability of the sex industry, which many of them make full use of.

"Objectifying women isn't necessarily about 'hating women'. Its disrespectful but not necessarily hateful."

In your opinion.

I disagree. Turning a person into an object is definitely about hatred. It's about denying their humanity and using them for one's own ends in this case.

Your last sentence is a personal attack so I'm reporting your post.

Unbelievable. You get upset because I suggest the way you come across is as something because I happen to disagree with your views.

So you report.

Childish in the extreme.

And not personal. I am trying to explain why I think what you are saying is ultimately not helping your cause.

It's not childish to think that namecalling doesn't have a place in discussion. In fact it's calling people you disagree with names that's the less than mature way to behave.

What I'm doing is helping my cause. It's very important to challenge the kind of misogynistic attitudes that firstly think it's OK for men to go to places like Amsterdam and pay for sex, and secondly then deny that that's what they are doing, so nobody can complain about it. Once again arguing that it isn't is just your opinion, nothing more.

The client/sex worker situation is very complex though. It isn't necessarily an abusive situation. It isn't necessarily a case of hater and victim of hatred. You can't possibly know that every man who uses prostitutes is a misogynist and you can't possibly know that every woman who turns to prostitution is a troubled, exploited soul either.

If you don't see yourself as a victim of misogyny, if you feel empowered as a prostitute, if you feel that you are just doing a job to earn money, does that still mean you are a victim of misogyny? Or are you just an individual earning money in exchange for your services?

Exploitation and victimisation is rife throughout the sex industry. Ergo all women involved in it are victims? I don't think so.

Men who express misogynistic views will absolutely always use the services of a prostitute when available? I don't think so.

FWIW, its not the first time I've seen the self proclaimed feminists on this site resort to the report button rather than engage in an adult fashion. Its incredibly frustrating and incredibly annoying that it is impossible to have an adult conversation on anything like this with it coming to this.

No wonder I didn't bother with the thread about why don't women like feminism or contribute to the total insanity of the PIV one.

Because I'm completely alienated and disengaged from it. Or told I'm brainwashed, naive or stupid for having a different opinion. Or anti-feminist. Or insulting.

Real shame as it just ends up with feminist issues being discussed by a minority group who don't reflect a range of opinions.

I did not name call. I said that you came across as something. That is an important thing to try and understand to try and get your ideas across and for it to have a positive affect.

Its totally ridiculous and totally pointless trying to have a conversation with you as a result.

It's very important to challenge the kind of misogynistic attitudes that firstly think it's OK for men to go to places like Amsterdam and pay for sex, and secondly then deny that that's what they are doing, so nobody can complain about it.

you don't know that they have used prostitutes though and you don't even know these specific men! And yes, you cannot complain about a co-worker choosing to visit prostitutes in their free-time. As awful as that action may be. If it doesn't impinge on work then it is not the OPs business.

It's a fact that trafficking is rife in the sex industry and in Amsterdam. It's a fact that the town council had to close down a third of brothels and their outdoor prostitution zone because of the trafficking and crime involved in prostitution, including exploitation of the women in it. I'm sure you can speculate about happy hookers but there is a recorded reality and to me it seems better to engage with that.

"Men who express misogynistic views will absolutely always use the services of a prostitute when available? I don't think so."

I don't think anybody thinks that. The argument is that misgoynistic men who enjoy sexually objectifying women, when they arrange stag weekends to Amsterdam of all places, are likely to be availing themselves of the services on offer.

Lots of British men on stag weekends are doing this. It's not even speculation, it's happening right now and has been for a long time.

A group of men from my office went to Amsterdam

None of them used a prostitute.

My cousin lived in Amsterdam for 3 years

He never used with a prostitute

A work colleague of my DHs has never been to Amseterdam

He does use prostitutes. He's a dick.

I find your dogmatic approach distressing. I am not saying that your views are not valid. I am simply saying that there is not this "absolute certainty" that you express throughout your arguments here, NYAC.

And again, I return to the OP and say "you do not have a right to complain unless it directly impinges on your working situation". Or do you think she does, NYAC? Because so far I haven't seen you answer that particular gem.

Also, if I may defend youareallwrong for a moment. S/he did not personally attack you NYAC. S/he made the point that when you take a dogmatic, blanket approach basically saying that any man who goes on a stag do will use a prostitute then people don't want to listen because they will brand you, in this case, as a man-hater because it is a ridiculous statement to make because it simply isn't true. (way too many words for one sentence there - apologies).

I'd also like to say that I am very uncomfortable with the whole issue of prostitution but that doesn't give me the right to make the statements that you have made on this thread.

I think you're focusing on the wrong issue ujjay. The problem isn't my approach, which I disagree is dogmatic. Once again that's just your opinion.

There is a massive sex trade in Amsterdam, where women and girls are being horribly exploited, in part by men coming from the UK on stag weekends. It's something that has to stop. The harm and suffering they experience is what I would call distressing, not the way I voice my opinion on an internet discussion.

I've already said that the OP has the right to know exactly how much the men she works with hate women, and should ask them directly (if she's brave enough and it won't risk her job) whether they paid for sex whilst they were there. Men like this get away with their behaviour because most people are too scared to confront them, and everybody brushes under the carpet what they are doing, or attacks anybody who dares to voice an opinion against it.