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Original poster

Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

557 replies

cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 10:46

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

OP posts:
Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 01:52

Whomever you were addressing, the ffs was a bit uncalled for. I think the OP is a little concerned about realising she might be working with a group of young men who have no respect for women, and therefore no respect for her. It is a big deal if you feel you are not respected at work just because of your sex. Generally, men who pay to watch lap dancers or pay for sex don't really see women as people - they see them as objects to be used. I believe she has a right to be concerned, as I would be - so we will have to agree to differ.

Latara · 14/07/2012 01:55

btw OP - Most men i've known who go to Amsterdam visit the cafes first & get so stoned they can't see; so your colleagues may never reach the red light district let alone get it up should they wish to

klaritaf · 14/07/2012 01:55

oh well, women who use men as meal tickets and sperm donors aren't any better, or are they?

klaritaf · 14/07/2012 01:56

lol latara

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 01:58

Well I don't personally know any of those, but no - they are no better.

klaritaf · 14/07/2012 01:59

i bet you do

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 02:01

I'm not close to any - so I'd say no.

ilovesooty · 14/07/2012 02:13

So, Seenenoughtoknow you had a husband who sought sexual stimulation in Amsterdam and he had friends who behaved in a similar way. It doesn't mean all men who visit the city behave like that.

And I'm sure if you heard men talking about not "letting" their partners go away with a group of friends you'd be talking about how "controlling" they were.

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 09:07

No, he hasn't been to Amsterdam, but he has been to many other cities, both in Britain and abroad. A lot of his friends and men he knows have been there though, and he says that saying they go for the cheap beer is a line they all spun to their wives and GFs, but wasn't true. Sadly, many of these wives and GFs believe what their husbands say without question. I am only quoting him when I say all his (very wide circle) of friends and all his friends friends DO go to strip clubs and use prostitutes when they are away. My husband is the kind of man who never looked at another woman when he was with me over 10 years, so it was a massive shock. I would never have believed it of the friends of his I know too. I'm sure all the men who visit the city don't behave like that, but if you read the BBC article posted earlier, you'll see a great many do. That is why they go there.
With regard to men who don't 'let' their partners go away with friends - I think you'll find that's quite different...there isn't a massive worldwide sex and sex trafficking industry exploiting men to satisfy women's insatiable needs. Men are not demeaned and used everyday for sexual gratification by women.

LadyBeagleEyes · 14/07/2012 11:39

This thread is from February.

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 12:24

Does that matter?

YvonneMcGruder · 14/07/2012 12:46

Only read the first page, as not wading through 21 pages. Shock
You're concerned about people going to Amsterdam? Really?! On reading the title alone I just thought you meant your husband/boyfriend/whatever. Which would be more justifiable.
To be taking the huff over random workmates, however?!
In the nicest possible way, it's nowt to do with you, they can do what they like! YABU.

LadyBeagleEyes · 14/07/2012 12:50

Well, I expect they've been and gone now.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2012 12:54

this is an old thread

seenenough I am sorry you had to experience what you did, your exH is a fucking idiot

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 12:54

I would be interested to know if their behaviour around the office improved or deteriorated after the trip.

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 13:01

Thanks AF, if you read back a few posts you'll see it was not just my husband, but many many of the men in our small town and the neighbouring towns. That's what makes me wonder how many men are doing this and lying to their partners. I know I'm late with this for the thread, but after speaking to a few of my friends who's marriages also collapsed due to the same behaviour being uncovered, we decided the best we could do was spread the word and give a sisterly heads up to other women about these jolly-boys outings. Even my ex husband agrees it's a good idea, as he knows all the lies he and his mates used to tell, and I asked him to read this thread, and after a LOT of reading, he says he can guarantee that a lot of the women on here are being duped by their husbands because these are the lines he used to use on me and his previous GF's.

squeakytoy · 14/07/2012 13:05

"That's what makes me wonder how many men are doing this and lying to their partners"

You are not wondering though, you are telling us that ALL men are doing this. Which just is not true.

"Please ladies, think twice before letting your dh's go away with groups of men...it seems they are all very good liars - and it also seems that we are all VERY naive"

klaritaf · 14/07/2012 13:08

seenenough I think YOU were naive about men, but what is more so is this talk of 'sisterhood' and being 'sisterly' - yeh right, sure....

AnyFucker · 14/07/2012 13:09

seen I think that is fair enough

I do wonder why you have got such a defensive response from some posters

perhaps you touched a nerve or two ?

personally, I don't think this kind of behaviour is particularly widespread across the majority of men, but certainly so across the kind of men that go to places like Amsterdam for "boys weekends"

so we are talking about a self-selecting sample here

where my own H is concerned, he would never consider going on this kind of trip in the first place but I certainly never rest on my laurels where behaviour that is disrespectful to women is concerned

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 13:12

I am only going on my own personal experiences, and those of my husband and close friends. Of course I know not all men do it - I am not an idiot, and if you check carefully you'll see you are WRONG - I am not TELLING you that all men do it! I'm just giving a word of warning to make more people aware of what goes on very often that wives and girlfriends have no idea of.

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 13:12

K - I'm assuming you are a bloke with something to hide...

Seenenoughtoknow · 14/07/2012 13:18

AF - you are so right in my opinion, and I am glad you have a good H yourself. I am simply relaying my experiences, and asking why these men go to these places if they have no interested in the beauty/history/architecture etc. Why pay so much money to go to a known sex-tourist city for drugs you can get at home, and beer that's cheap in Tesco's?

I think you are right about the self-selecting sample. Not all men are like this, but like your H - they are the ones who would never go on these trips.

klaritaf · 14/07/2012 13:21

but I certainly never rest on my laurels where behaviour that is disrespectful to women is concerned

the thing is, disrespect to men is endemic and yet is barely noticed or is treated as a joke...for example in advertising where men are invariably portrayed as stupid, incapable, or hypochondriac..for example in the enforced feminisation of our boys in primary schools by left liberal female staff, for example where acceptable jokes about men by female comedians would be howled down by the 'sisterhood' as 'violent' were the genders reversed - example Jo Brand - 'the way to a mans heart is not through his stomach but through his breast pocket with a breadknife' ha bloody ha. Recently I was on a London bus and this crazed harridan screamed at a man who was momentarily blocking her buggy path 'BLOODY USELESS LIKE ALL MEN' - the poor guy..if the genders were reversed in that situation, can you imagine, the woman would be down the cop shop putting in a complaint and receiving 'victim support'. etc etc etc.
Quite honestly if I were a man I couldn't wait to get away and over to Amsters with my pals for a wild weekend.

klaritaf · 14/07/2012 13:23

and no I am not a bloke with something to hide. just a woman who questions the tired old feminist mantras.

AnyFucker · 14/07/2012 13:31

that is your prerogative, klar

if does make you sound like a bloke who is a bit pissed off with uppitty women though, or if not then one of those god-awful "men's women" but it takes all sorts I suppose