Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

And 90% of drug addicts are not prostitutes....

(I am including prescription drugs/alcohol/tobacco etc. in this)....

glad to see you back op

no blonde many object to a partner of theirs paying for a women to dance for them, they object to sharing their life with a man who feels it is ok to buy another women for his sexual gratification it is not about trust it is about how they view women. it has nothing to do with trust your partner

guess in dh case, they didnt pay anyone to dance for them, just went into a club for a beer (apart from the single one who did pay £500 for sex - mad man!!)

Think you have maybe hit a raw nerve with a few people.... I used to work as cabin crew & know some of the male crew (usually male pilots) visited prostitutes down route. A lot of the crew would go to sex shows in Amsterdam. One pilot had a stag do in Thailand and slept with an under age prostitute...so no I don't think you're wrong wondering what they will get up to, even if it is their private business. Am not saying all airline crew get up to this of course, just that being away from home a lot it can happen.

it is bullshit that men jump on a plane and pay for a hotel becasue there is cheap beer on offer

It is certainly not bullshit at all. I have been to Prague numerous times and never once been in the red light district. I have seen stag groups in the bars, at the tourist spots, in the sports bars.. and the beer out there is bloody cheap, and very good. Not all men are obsessed with sleeping with prostitutes or going to sex clubs. Many just want to go on a lads break and have a laugh. I also know quite a few who have been to Amsterdam, and the main reason is for the smoking, not the sex.

It's awesome how many people on this thread who I've seen bitching elsewhere about people on benefits being able to buy the odd beer are fine with a bunch of public sector wankers employees spending money they've been given by the very same taxpayer on prostitutes and spliffs. But probably only if you're a connoiseur of hypocrisy.

A friend recently went to a Spanish resort with her husband and child, in a group organised by an amateur football league.
All, but one other, men went without their wives or partners.

She was appalled by their behaviour (and I don't mean drinking).

So, it doesn't matter if it is Amsterdam. The men who get up to such behaviour do it anywhere.
I'm not sure I'd want to be friends with such men.

Not sure public sector workers are obliged to report where they spent the money they have earned.
What if they smoke or drink, or buy expensive cars? Are those allowed?

I hated Thailand so much. The Western men are absolutely revolting and the abuse of young girls is horrific. Just going to Tesco, you see old men with socks and sandals, young men in socks and sandals, groups of stag men with these young girls on their arms and the slimy pimp following at a distance. I saw many children being offered. I stayed in a hotel ran by a charity that strives to offer training and education as a way out and the staff are mainly rescued child prostitutes. Absolutely heartbreaking and I can never again think "harmless fun" because there ARE victims. I feel upset just thinking about it.

wibblybibble

Theres a difference between spending money you are given for doing nothing and a wage though surely. So your point is rather redundant

As the OP I do feel there has been unwarranted hate against me displayed on this thread...eg "get a life jobsworth," being described as joyless and arrogant with too much time on my hands. None of which are true. I have had a choice in work of putting up with unacceptable behaviour, which has caused other, younger women to leave as a result, or challenge it

Whatevers......your remit certainly does not reach to what other people do in their spare time.

theo, fair enough. I absolutely agree with you, btw. A beautiful, beautiful country tarnished by it's tacit acceptance of the sexual abuse of children. Sickening.

Gosh Wibblybibble are you saying all public sector employees should receive with their pay packets a list of appropriate things to spend their wages on?

Some posters have been unduly harsh to the OP. Yes it is not her business what they do on the stage weekend but it is her concern if she feels uncomfortable at work if a large number of her workmates are collectively sharing an experience which involves the collective degradation of women.

I in the 80's once worked in a male dominated office where a few times a week most of the men had lunch in a pub with strippers. This venue was deemed acceptable by management who also went there and I only knew what it was because I was invited shortly after I joined

It was very uncomfortable sitting next to the men who I knew had been staring, drooling, making nasty comments about the state of the strippers on any given lunchtime.

OP it is entirely possible that the weekend in Amsterdam will be drink with a side order of just wandering around sniggering at the sex workers. In that case though, they could have chosen Belgium. YANBU.

If OP feels so uncomfortable working with men who MAY have had a lap dance or two, she should find a work place where she will be sure her colleagues have never visited prostitutes, gone to strip clubs, had lap dances etc. If she really thinks she can ever find such a company.

Or, alternatively, she should stop the control freakery, accept that she can't choose her colleagues, and reel her neck in. IF these colleagues employ Amsterdam's LEGAL sex industry and IF they come back and inconsiderately disturb her in the office with the stories, THEN she has reason to whine.

If not, as has been said many times on this thread: It Is None Of Her Business what her colleagues get up to on their holiday.

This is a bizarre thread.

I have spent several happy weekends in Amsterdam without having sex with prostitutes or taking drugs. On the other hand, when DH went (he was about 18) he paid to watch a private strip. There were apparently "used" tissues in the chair he had to sit in and he says it was awful and seedy and put him off that sort of thing for life.

But you certainly don't need to go to Amsterdam to do any of these things do you? Would you be so worried OP if they were going to London, or Edinburgh or Paris? Because there are strippers, lap-dancers and prostitutes anywhere and everywhere. Some men (and women) visit/use them. It is a fact of life OP and as many people have said, it isn't your business.

I don't like it and I wouldn't want to hear colleagues talking about it, but you can't assume that every married man who is going on this trip will be shagging prostitutes - you wouldn't assume that if they were going for a night out in Manchester would you? The fact that it is Amsterdam will not make people do things they don't actually want to do.

helen pot isnt legal in Belgiumwhivh could be a factor in their choice

I actually can't get over the fact that your so concerned about what your co-workers will do in their spare time. I completely think you're right in what you say you've done about challenging behaviour etc in the workplace but genuinely I think maybe you're becoming a little obsessed if what they do in their own time is so much on your mind.

A year or so ago I would have been with the majority of posters here, but after discovering that not only my dh but all of his friends (and a wider circle of men he knows vaguely) ALL lie to their wives about lap dancing club visits, trips to massage parlours on stag nights, football trips, work trips etc etc.
When I discovered my dh had been unfaithful in various ways, I asked how many men were doing this, and he admitted it was everyone he knew! These are all 'nice' family men - kind, thoughtful, loving husbands and friends...all whom I have known for years and liked a lot, and EVERY one using those opportunities for extra-marital fun. My dh admitted that men who don't objectify women don't go to strip clubs, and certainly don't 'hang around' red light districts. I spoke in private to a friend who is one of these cheating men and he admitted that EVERYONE he knows does it too! He said all the lads he knows who go away from two neighbouring towns where he has family all do it too. These men are excellent liars...I have been with my dh for ten years and we have dd's and ds's, and he has been a truly lovely husband and very best friend (or so I thought). We have always had a fabulous sex life too - so don't think that will stop them! Please ladies, think twice before letting your dh's go away with groups of men...it seems they are all very good liars - and it also seems that we are all VERY naive.

And just to satisfy curiosity, when my dh came home from said trips, there would always be the story about 'the one single lad who had a blow job', and 'the one married who snogged a woman but his mates stopped him before he went too far'. Dh said these were to show they were human - wanting to sniff around the prostitutes etc, but also to throw us unsuspecting wives off the scent! He said that the lads had discussed what they would say to the wives so she would think they were 'sharing' - makes them seem more trustworthy. DH said the only 2 men he knows at work who don't go on the trips are the only ones with morals - he said they never go because they know what all the rest are up to. DH said all men know what these trips are about, and those who don't want sex don't go. Needless to say, dh and I aren't married anymore! He has many regrets now - all related to this subject as we still speak and our children are growing and he hates how he spent his lifetime lying and treating women like objects - he is terrified that our dd's are growing up into this world - because he knows they might be treated the way he and all his friends have treated their loving wives. I only wish he had been this thoughtful and honest when I was married to him!! Beware ladies! Remember - every man who goes to these places knows what goes on there. There are some that are incredibly naive amongst us - I was too, but not anymore. Oh, and men who say they're not interested in the lap dancers, and find it all a bit seedy etc etc - that's a line dh says they all spin - like the one about them only buying the lads mags for the articles...ha! We have a lot to learn!

YABU to worry - if a man wants to misbehave - ie. cheat & / or take drugs then he can easily do the same in the UK but without the inconvenience of travelling far; & without all his mates knowing!

I live in a South coast town; there are lots of 'massage parlours', 'escort agencies' & brothels within a 45 minute walking distance of my home... some in very expensive areas & some in the dodgier parts of town.
In the 'red light district' it's sad to see the prostitutes standing around looking after each others' babies / toddlers while their mums are 'busy'.
There are several strip clubs / lapdancing clubs in the centre of town (& i hear that the dancers offer 'extras' usually.
Certain bars in hotels that accommodate businessmen 'tolerate' groups of so-called 'high-class' escorts using the bars as a base.

Getting hold of recreational drugs eg coke is extremely easy here; users are rarely prosecuted.

Many bars, clubs & casinos are open until 4am or 5am at least; with customers of all ages - it's easy for a man to try to pick up a woman & cheat on his wife if that's what he wants to do (& vice versa obviously).
I know of several men in my workplace who usually have mistresses (it's an open secret at work but I don't know if their wives realise - not nice.).

a certain attitude towards women does sometimes permeate into my work environment -
and not going to Amsterdam is going to change that, how?
sure a certain attitude towards men hasn't crept in there?
ffs.....

My dh said he and his crowd have done all these things both home and abroad. He said they all felt safer abroad though because there was no chance they'd bump into someone they knew, whilst in Britain there was that tiny tiny chance. Didn't stop them though. Dh has spent time in councilling and came clean to ease his conscience and to help me to help our kids to avoid this in the future. He read that most of these problems come from access to porn from teenage years - which of course the nation has completely lost the battle with now because of Internet on phones etc. My brother's daughter (15 yrs) says all the lads in her year are utterly obsessed with porn and watch the most hideous images! I am no prude but some of what she said was alarming. These boys are 15. None of them go home and tell their parents what they've been watching. None of these husbands go home and tell their wives what they've been doing. We are on the way to a full blown epidemic, and it can only get worse. My husband's councillor said that sex addiction is on the rise in teenage boys and is going to be out of control within 10 years. These are the boys our daughters will marry. Boys who don't know how to make love...they will only know how to use a woman's body to masterbate into. There's plenty of info about this on the net - and it's scary stuff.

Klaritaf, bit rude don't you think...no need. I am simply repeating what my ex husband told me. Did I say I hate men? No. Get your facts right. It is a warning to women to be careful...a bit of sisterhood - although I'm assuming that's alien to you.

I was kind of addressing the OP, was that you? plus never assume anything seenenoughtoknow.....who is being rude anywa? a bunch of men want to visit Amsterdam? Big big deal.

also, I have to continue this......did I call you a man hater? no. so get YOUR 'facts' right, although actually we are not dealing in fact, but opinion.