Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

Of course it is possible to avoid the red light district but many tourists choose not to.

Amsterdam is used by many men for prostitutes: (from the Guardian, "Why do men pay for sex" article) "Half of the interviewees had bought sex outside of the UK, mostly in Amsterdam".

People can also get drunk and go clubbing in Britain, and yet so many young adults choose to go to Malia, Kavos, Ibiza etc. to do just that. It is a different experience when you are on holiday - the normal rules don't seem to apply.

My point was that many people do, not that everybody does. That would be a ridiculous assertion. I like to think that I am slightly more intelligent than that.

I've seen the red-light district of Amsterdam, not deliberately, we just ended up there while walking around, it was over 20 years ago but I vowed never to go back to a place that had women sitting in windows, for sale like pieces of meat. I imagine it's even worse now.
For what it's worth, I think people who go there for drugs are as pathetic as those who go there to ogle the prostitutes, seriously, get a life and see the big picture.

it is bullshit that men jump on a plane and pay for a hotel becasue there is cheap beer on offer

Some of them have that as their priority.

many are going for the cheap easy access to the sex industry where they can easily pay a young beautiful woman to dance, have sex with, suck them off whatever there are no prying eyes, if this was not the case the industry would not be thriving the way it i

As said upthread: that applies to businessmen and not confined to some people in stag parties.

there are many other palces to visit where there are cool bars and cheap beer but this do not seem as polular to groups of men

Few of them are as cheap to fly to, and few of them speak English as widely.

here's another interesting link.

www.iamsterdam.com/en/pressroom/dossier-red-light-district

Malificence the city offers much, much more. But if you've chosen to close your eyes to that...

People go to France for cheap alcohol to bring back so there is definitely some stock in the cheap alcohol tourism argument. Although Prague does also have sex tourism. I'm with ilovesooty on this one.

FS I think you are saying I am, at best, naieve, and at worst some sort of sex worker hating, deluded, sex industry denier / apologist if I believe that a lot of men go on weekends to places like Riga and Prague because of cheap beer, cheap flights and a change of scenery. I think you are saying that most men go for prostitution and are sex tourists.

I am saying that some no doubt do go for this reason. Of course some do. But certainly not all and not even most. Just some. If the figures on the amount of men who use prostitutes are true then just 10% (although despite me asking she did not say where those figures came from. More will undoubtedly go to a LDC, but I think these men would go to a UK LDC just as readily - it is not like they are hard to find or rare in the UK so would reqire a special trip abroad.

ah, suburbophobe I do indeed have my geography wrong

"De Wallen" is the area I was referring to, which is indeed a well-defined ghetto with the obvious raison d'etre, and thank you for pointing that out to me

8,000 prostitutes is the estimated number for Amsterdam, according to suburbophobe's link. 8,000! But the legality does seem to be a good thing for the welfare of the women.

i am not saying either about you i am saying what i beleive and i do not agree with you

it is not rocket science is it easy access to sex industry an increase in lots of men going on men only holidays, sex industry grows, more men going there

i have never said all men but i do beleive it is many men and far more than are willing to admit that is the attraction, sure cheap beer and cool clubs are a bonus too but i do beleive that many (not all) that the real pull is the sex industry. if this were not the case the industry would not be thriving the way it is (i sound like a stuck record now)

De Wallen and its surrounding area have been the subject of a big clean up in recent years. The number of "shop windows" has been reduced as has the number of "coffeeshops". Zeedijk which used to be really sleazy has been prioritised and you can really see a difference. In terms of inappropriate and antisocial behaviour there's a heavy police presence too.

Well we must know different men then FS as I think paying for sex remains something a minority of men would do, not the majority.

For LDCs I would of course agree the figures would be much higher, but again this is not something people would travel abroad directly to access when it is so prevelant at home.

Ilovesooty.. As the OP I do feel there has been unwarranted hate against me displayed on this thread...eg "get a life jobsworth," being described as joyless and arrogant with too much time on my hands. None of which are true. I have had a choice in work of putting up with unacceptable behaviour, which has caused other, younger women to leave as a result, or challenge it. My office is now a more pleasant place for me and other women, plus men who might also have found some behaviour unacceptable. I've made a few enemies in doing so, but certainly have respect.

And I wouldn't change that...it might be you or your wife/daughter who comes along after me, I hope they'd benefit.

That's what aibu is like, and none of those name-calling posts display much in the way of intellect, plus, as you may have gathered , I'm no stranger to dealing with negativity.

I'm glad there is so much impassioned and well-argued discussion though, even from those with whom I might disagree. I don't know where I stand personally on whether prostitution should be legalised, and the debate here has made me think hard about that. What disturbs me most is human trafficking and also what prostitution does for the sex worker's self esteem.

I doubt that anything would alter my dim view of men who use prostitutes though.

hi OP

the "get a life, jobsworth" comment was rightfully ignored, as it was obviously uttered by a nincompoop

OP, I think that in challenging your colleague's sexist and homophobic comments you are doing a great thing. They will approach their future female colleagues being respectful from the beginning and hopefully earn their respect more than they have earnt yours. I think that you also hinted that you were doing activist work (or maybe I dreamt this, I read the thread yesterday evening) which is very commendable and proves that you do have a life.

ilovesooty, I read a different article about the number of coffee shops disappearing (not related I know but still...) and it was set out negatively. The legal weed trade has reduced the drug-related in neighbouring countries, I think it said, and also prevented the often toxic additives (like rat poison) in the drugs, which are much more harmful than the drugs themselves. So perhaps reducing the number of coffee shops is a bad thing. Or perhaps the article was biased and didn't present the other side fairly.

visit Thailand

care to elaborate, theo ?

Fido... Yes, I'm also involved in diversity projects. Thanks for your support (and that of others).

I have had a choice in work of putting up with unacceptable behaviour, which has caused other, younger women to leave as a result, or challenge it

As you had every right to do cathkidstonrefusnik - but by your own admission people's private holidays are their own business.

Yes FidoFellDown - I think there are negatives and positives.

This may be of interest to those who would like more information about the sex industry in Amsterdam:

www.pic-amsterdam.com/startgb.html

I had my hen do in Amsterdam. Not one single hairy bollock between us. We did however "do" the van gogh museum, lots of drugs; and then bought the flower market. Wonderful architecture, wonderful drugs, no prostitutes. We went for the culture don't you know.

dh had his stag do in amsterdam and yes they did go to a strip club and one friend paid for a prostitute but he was single but all dh said was once you see one lot of boobs, they are all the same

was i bothered he went? no- coz i trusted him

you dont have to go away to Amsterdam/red light district etc to be unfaithful - just as easy to play away at home

tbh i dont see it any different from me going to watch a stripper for a friends bday

it all comes down to trust and dh said he barely looked at the waitress's/dancers

Yes, drugs are so cultural.
The drug trade is the other side of the coin to prostitution, criminals and people traffickers are always involved in the drug trade too. It's no surprise that 90%+ of street prostitutes are also drug addicts.