Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

That's two questions of mine you need to answer SigmundFraud now. You said last night that if this thread was still going today you'd answer this as well:

"Do you give any kind of a thought to the women in Amsterdam who are very likely to have been trafficked from Eastern Europe or Africa or the Far East who are having to service disgusting men from stag parties every weekend and what it must be like for them. I just don't understand how you can ignore that in favour of rad fem bashing. It doesn't make sense to me."

Catgirl, in your opinion it's ridiculous. On the other hand there are people on this thread who agree with me. I'm taking you to task for the ridiculous denial which leads to the idea that sexist men on stag parties won't have any interest in the sexual services on offer in Amsterdam when they go away on a lads weekend. It's denial like that, which helps in part for these men to continue with their hateful destructive behaviour, because no-one will challenge them on it.

Oh and I didn't say all sexist men who go to Amsterdam will use a prostitute. I said it was likely for some of them, and that they were highly likely to be making use of the commercial sex opportunities on offer e.g. lapdancing, sex shows etc.

Perhaps if you actually quoted me accurately you wouldn't find my opinions ridiculous.

I didnt quote you. I asked you to clarify what you meant as I was unclear.

To get back to the OP, for those of you who do think she has the right to know what her co-workers do in their own time

and assuming they would tell her

and if it transpired one or more of them had used a prostitute / been to a sex show / similar

what then should the OP then do with that information?

Catgirl, in your opinion it's ridiculous

No - I simply asked you to clarify what you are were saying as it could be taken on two ways, the first of which would be ridiculous, the second of which no one would disagree with.

I am not denying that some men on stag dos will use the sex industry. I am denying that all will. That's just a fact and one you don't actually disagree with so I don't get what you are taking me to task over.

'What do you think about it SF?'

I think that there will always be men and women that want to pay for sex. I think that there will always be men and women that will offer to have sex for money, whether forced or not.

I think that criminalising paying for sex would simply push brothels undergound, and for every brothel that's busted, another will spring up in it's place, it will be completely unregulated and conditions for the sex workers worse.

Sexual desire is a very poweful thing, and you will not extinguish it. It doesn't really matter what an individuals personal take on brothels is.

I think brothels should be legalised to ensure safety for the sex workers as much as possible. I don't think all people who use brothels should be punished, unless of course they behaved in a violent manner.

I don't believe that men and women who use prostitutes/escorts are misogynists/misandrists. I used to know a true misogynist and he bore no resemblance to the men you describe.

You never answered my post earlier in the thread Nyac. Are your posts more important?

Just repeat it SF. That's what I did when you weren't answering.

Here's my question again, which you still haven't answered although you promised to last night.

"Do you give any kind of a thought to the women in Amsterdam who are very likely to have been trafficked from Eastern Europe or Africa or the Far East who are having to service disgusting men from stag parties every weekend and what it must be like for them. I just don't understand how you can ignore that in favour of rad fem bashing. It doesn't make sense to me."

Are you just going to lecture and patronise?

You do realise how many men when confronted by a woman telling them they are all bad and making generalisations react by cracking an anti-woman joke because frankly they have nothing to loose and thats how they feel they are seen in the first place. In short they are not respected so why should they bother to give it in return.

Still not heard seen a response to WUL's description of group dynamics or whats fuelling stuff on an individual level. Nope, its black and white women hating and no shades of grey. And its funny how you are having a go at SF not answering points but keep picking and choosing your own.

And how dare you say no one will challenge men on this. I just think your approach is so unbelievably wrong and alienating its untrue.

I just think there is so little input on the whys and wherefores from a male perspective its untrue. Its almost as if they are irrelevant. To understand the problems surely engaging is the way to get to the bottom of them rather than being preached at.

This is putting me more and more off feminism. Not because its wrong in wanting to advance women's rights, but because its so neglectful of 50% of the population that it can not possibly go forward without ultimately disadvantaging, or discriminating against another either accidentally or deliberately.

Really have had enough of this now. Not because of the subject, but because I'm being told constantly that I don't understand what feminism is and accused of being supportive of the sex industry or some other such crap, because the generalisations piss me off so much. I just don't think its anywhere near as simple or as black and white as the picture you have in your head is.

I'm off to become an non gender specific equalist... congratulations.

So really your posts on this thread have been about defending men's right to buy women's bodies SF. (the amount of women who pay for sex is miniscule)

'"Do you give any kind of a thought to the women in Amsterdam who are very likely to have been trafficked from Eastern Europe or Africa or the Far East who are having to service disgusting men from stag parties every weekend and what it must be like for them. I just don't understand how you can ignore that in favour of rad fem bashing. It doesn't make sense to me."

Of course I do. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the sex industry, but to close it down is not the answer. It's naive to think that you can.

You call men who go to Amsterdam for the sex industry misogynists. That's a strong word. You're overthinking the mindset of some of these men. You are assuming that they posess full knowledge of the realities of some sex workers and trafficking, but that they don't give a shit. Some men (most probably) do not know the realities of the sex industry. They think 'That women is offering me sex if I pay for it. I'm happy to pay for it', and nothing more than that. You are assuming that these men have the same knowledge of the sex industry that you do, in many cases they don't.

If I'm taking issue with some of the RadFem's stance it is because I fundamentally disagree with it.

Interesting thoughts here. Thanks for the insights from woundupleaf and runningforthebusin heels.

I asked dh what he thought would go on, as colleagues of his have been on similar trips. He said "they'll probably go to a sex show"...we then had a discussion about sex trafficking.

Ultimately I have no right to know what happens, as many here have said. Doesn't stop it giving me the creeps though, especially as I know some of their partners who will be staying at home looking after the children. It would be heartening to find out that they went and didn't go to sex shows or more, but I think that would be a naive assumption to make of the group as a whole, just as it would be unfair to think that some will probably not go along with it.

Totally agree cath that it is likely some may go to a sex show but probably not all and. Also agree that it is not your business but you can't help but feel creeped out by the thought and it is NU for you to be so.

'So really your posts on this thread have been about defending men's right to buy women's bodies SF. (the amount of women who pay for sex is miniscule)'

My posts on this thread have been about your closed minded attitude, sweeping generalisations and dogma. This isn't just about protecting women, it's about your dislike of men. You will not hear other opinions, you only hear your own.

If a man wants to pay for sex, and a woman wants (and is not co-erced or forced) to take payment for sex, then yes, I defend his right to buy sex and I also defend a woman's right to sell it.

But we just saw your basic view there SF - men should be able to pay for sex (only a tiny, tiny number of women ever do, compared to one in ten of the male population) and women shouldn't get in the way of that. Feminists who do point out the enormous harm that prostitution does to women (most women have to be raped into the profession just for starters) they'll be attacked as closed minded, dogmatic etc.

Prostitution is a human rights abuse and a crime against women and children. The Nordic countries have the right idea about what to do about it. It's not naive to think it's possible to largely eradicate the sex industry, it's already happening in places like Sweden and Norway.

Where does the 1 in 10 figure come from? Am interested

Also - I am not convinved that making the sex industry illegal will stop it.

The trafficking of people is illegal but is on the rise, not the decline.

OP, YANBU by thinking the way you do, not at all, I wouldn't want to have to deal with men like that every day either. There is a sales office at my workplace, staffed by very young men, I walked in not long agao and they were discussing another colleagues birthday "surprise", they had all chipped in and had £200 for private dances for him at the local LDC, as I said, they are young, young enough to be my sons, all under 25, it turned my stomach to hear them talk like that and I found it very disturbing.
If I knew a group of men were off to Amsterdam or Prague etc. for a stag do, I would assume that they were sex tourists and I would treat them with the contempt they deserve.

Amsterdam is a beautiful city, spoiled by the rotten core that is the red-light district, it's a horrific place and the quicker it's shut down the better.

'But we just saw your basic view there SF - men should be able to pay for sex (only a tiny, tiny number of women ever do, compared to one in ten of the male population) and women shouldn't get in the way of that. Feminists who do point out the enormous harm that prostitution does to women (most women have to be raped into the profession just for starters) they'll be attacked as closed minded, dogmatic etc.'

You have deliberately missed my point and twisted my words. Again. Ever thought of a job as a politician? I can see straight through you Nyac. I know what your agenda is. Anyone who googles RadFem can see that it's not just about 'saving' women and womens rights.

I went to Amsterdam on a stag weekend. We did smoke weed and drink beer. Some of us - including me - went to the Anne Frank Museum, while others went to the Rijksmuseum. None of us went to a strip club, or visited a prostitute, or browsed sex shops. This didn't strike any of us as a particularly remarkable set of choices to make, and our party had plenty of laddy men.

The frequent assumption here that if men are going to Amsterdam it must be for sex boggles my mind. There are, as has been said, strip clubs and prostitutes everywhere. The legal weed is the far more likely reason.

Everyone I know who goes, goes for the weed.

Of the maybe 20 blokes I know who go, 2 have been to a sex show, none have used a prostitute

BTW - that is not to deny to deny it happens, just to point out that saying the main reason most men go is the sex trade is wrong

the reason prague is popular is the cheap beer

SF: I find myself agreeing with you, I also felt that nyac twisted your response (although I guess I also did that earlier to one of her responses so it could well have been accidental).

However, nyac, I still take issue with your definition - why does being a woman confer any commonality between women? I feel you are perpetuating a division between men and women. The analogy that springs to mind is the football supporter one. You can't legitimately assume anything about someone in a Celtic shirt other than that they probably support Celtic - yet conflict arises because people choose to use that as a category to define their initial views on people

Re: Swedish sex laws..

''Ex-prostitute's revelations

While the sex law has intensified and widened the debate about prostitution, it is not clear whether it has helped women who sell sex.

Former prostitute Isabella Lund, 45, has gone public to speak on behalf of her former colleagues.

She argues that the Sexkopslagen might have led to fewer women working on the streets, but more women now have to work underground to avoid their customers being caught in the crime.

On her website, Ms Lund writes: "Sex workers in Sweden advocate decriminalisation and better working conditions, because underground profiteers, pimps and traffickers flourish and we would rather avoid them."

She argues that the strict sex law has made trafficked women even more vulnerable, as the trade has been driven underground.

Paradoxically, these are precisely the women the UK government wants to help, as it examines Sweden's experience.''

full link