Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

WUL, is your beef then that you resent being lumped in with "some men" ?

because "some men" doesn't necessarily mean you, unless you have a habit of partaking of the sex industry or excusing those that do

it's quite simple really

Woundupleaf; Nyac is pointing out that she worked with sexist men, who used prostitutes.

Not saying men in general use them. She's saying SEXIST men use them. Why is this so hard to grasp?

when I say "some men" in this context, I don't include my husband nor most of the men I know

it's not a slur on all men to say "some men"

But the OP is saying these guys have form

Form for what exactly. Sexism in the workplace could cover a hell of a lot of bases. And that still doesn't make them sleep with prostitutes!

As much as that may pain you to admit that is a generalisation and an still a wild assumption.

Why is no one asking other questions here? Its just men are sexist pigs end of discussion.

No thought to influence of alcohol. No thought to why there is a suggestion that Stag Dos in particular are a problem. No thought as to whether its a British thing in particular (as has been suggested upthread). No thought as to whether men really want to go on stag dos but feel pressured. No thought as to how men can feel more able to stand up to peer pressure.

Nope its a blanket MEN WHO GO TO AMSTERDAM GO FOR THE SEX TRADE as a black and white statement which refuses to look beyond that.

Picking up on the blanket statements and a refusal to accept that generalisations are a problem on this particular subject is part of trying to fully understand the ins and outs of it and actually do something about it.

OP, I feel the same as you, it creeps me out.

Not only do the guys I work with go on similar stag dos but they visit lapdancing bars in their lunch hour. The thought that they do this and then work alongside me moments later makes my flesh crawl.

AF: no, my beef is that you are still using the designation 'men' to distinguish from women. It should be an irrelevant categorisation for the vast majority of things - judge me as an individual with multiple characteristics: some good, some bad, some neutral, but don't over-emphasise the importance of one facet of me (male).

For fear of sounding like a broken record, I believe the rad fem hat is being discussed here is actually creating a conflict between men's and women because it highlights the 'them and us' situation. Necessary to achieve an intermediate goal, but counter-productive to the end goal of meritocracy.

Disclaimer: I don't know what a rad fem hat is. I think I meant that..

Then you should come and work with me and then you would know some.

They used to take clients there too. Not so much these days but a few a couple of years ago when business was better it was practically their second office.

We can't know for sure, worra, but if none of them visit a prostitute, brothel or whatever, I'd be surprised

Well there you go

None of us know for sure, it's none of the OP's business as long as they don't discuss their private weekend with her/in front of her.

All the rest is simply speculation.

YAAW: I did do a fairly long post on what tends to happen on stag dos (from my limited experience) at 23:10ish.

Well over 10yrs ago my best friend got married. My dh (was only my boyfriend then) was invited on the stag do, a weekend in Amsterdam. We both hated the idea tbh, but the whole thing got a bit 'bridezilla' and despite tentative efforts to get out of it, we didn't manage it and off he went.

There was about 15 of them. My (now) dh stuck with "another boyfriend of a friend of the wife to be" and these 2 were basically treated as pariahs for the whole weekend as they didn't like strip clubs, let alone prostitutes "being the most likely to squeal to the girlfriends".

Dh still quotes it as one of the worst weekends of his life - they were jeered at for not going to strip club - they just sat in a hash bar. They then watched as after the strip club the bridegroom to be and the best man disappeared off to the red light district - and it was not to just look. Dh then feigned illness and hid in his room after the first night until home time!

He chose not to tell me these details until years later - I'm still not clear why - but in doing so saved me an agonising choice of telling my best friend what had gone on, but I still feel bad that I know and she (to my knowledge) doesn't. Please don't judge my dh for that - he did what he thought was best at the time.

My dh cannot stand my best friends dh now - cannot stand him. We still see each other all the time. If it all now I would have no problem saying 'no' to the stag night.

OP I realise not all stag nights will be as distasteful as the one I've described - but there is a pretty good chance it will be. To think anything else is just naive.

Their lunch hour, their business. I don't like the way it makes me feel but then that's my problem, not theirs.

So, y'know, the fact they're actively involved in the exploitation of other women isn't your problem? Would you feel the same if your DSis, DD got a job in a strip club? Does their sexist attitude extend into work?

i am not sure where maisy works but it was like that where i worked. i and other women did make compliants to hr (few women in the office) but when someone is making lots of money for a company they know that are not going to get sacked they think they are above rules and regulations because they are treated that way

i liked my job at the time, i got fed up and woudl not want to go back but really is it my problem that i do not like to hear women spoken about in such a degrading way surely it should be that it should not happen, or wait until you are out of work, in an open plan office over lots of phones and shouting you hear conversations that you do not want to or should not hear

"MEN LIKE THIS. Isn't this just as bad a stereotype as people assuming things about women with blonde hair?"

Um no. We're talking about attitudes and behaviour, not physical attributes that can't be changed. Men like this = sexist men who go on lads weekends away together to sex tourism destinations.

"It frustrates me hugely to see a self proclaimed feminist not extending the same respect."

What respect? When have men as a group ever respected women as individuals or as a class? The OP is saying herself that this group are a bunch of misogynists who have had to be actively worked against in the workplace to get their behaviour to be that of reasonable people and not a bunch of chauvinists. What is this "same respect" you're talking about? It's not coming from men apart from a few exceptions.

"You want to be judged as an individual, on your own merits (as do I)?"

No I want freedom for women from male oppression. Feminism is not an individualist enterprise. Once again there is this shaky understanding of feminism, that leads to accusations of hypocrisy when there isn't any.

OP, I can see why this bugs you and I think some posters have been a bit unfair

let me guess, when said men have babies etc I am sure you coo at the photos, ask about their kids. But when they (a) have form and (b) are off to a know sex tourist destination you are supposed to mind your own?

It would not sit well with me either

What do you think about the legalisation of brothels Nyac?

I've already said that paying for sex should be a crime and that the people who do it should be punished, so in that context there would be clearly no legalised brothels.

What do you think about it SF?

And also, I take issue with the term misogynists being used in connection with all men who take part in the sex industry.

NYAC - are you saying all sexist men who go to Amsterdam will use a prostitute? Because that is a ridiculous statement and you must be able to see why people are taking you to task over it.

If you are saying all men who go to Amsterdam and use prostitutes are sexist, then no one would disagree with you

Perhaps if you clarified?

This is what life in a brothel is like. She's from Ireland but women in prostitution across the world have reported the same:

The harsh realities of being raped for a living

"I didn?t just work outdoors. When the Sexual Offences Act of 1993 came into force it drove me and many others indoors, where we had even less autonomy over the conditions of our own lives. In the brothels and the ?escort? agencies, we had to endure the same things we did on the streets, but we had to endure them for longer, and with no screening process as to who would pay to abuse us.

"You might wonder, ?if you were a prostitute, what did it matter who it was?? That is an innocent question, and it is deserving of an answer. It mattered because, far from being unaware of the abusive nature of prostitution, a lot of men were not only aware of it but actively got off on it. The misogyny from a lot of men was so potent and so deliberate it could cause nothing but trauma. And we, as the prostituted class that we were, could do nothing to protect ourselves other than try to avoid its most potent manifestations. This had been at least somewhat possible on the streets, where we could do our best to discern whether or not a man had hatred and the desire to hurt us seeping out of every pore. It was not at all possible once we?d gotten run indoors, and the immediate effect was a rapid escalation in violence and murder.

"Irish prostitution has been mainly conducted indoors since then, and nothing about this ugliness has abated because it?s been concealed from the public view. In fact the opposite has been true. We were abused more thoroughly, not less, with the only difference being that now there was the secrecy of closed doors to conceal it.