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Original poster

Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

557 replies

cathkidstonrefusnik · 18/02/2012 10:46

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

OP posts:
FrothyDragon · 18/02/2012 23:57

oh for god's sake...

The man hating rad fems, again, aye?

No. For god's sake.

The problem lies in SEXIST men. Not just because they hold a penis. But because they hold warped, entitled, misogynistic views of women.

I know my son isn't the enemy. I know my father isn't. It's the men who systematically exploit and abuse women who are the enemy, or allow the abuse and exploitation of women to take place.

youareallwrong · 18/02/2012 23:57

Nyac, I just think that just ends up shifting the problem rather than solving it. And I don't believe that necessarily stops it anyway. Brothels are illegal in the UK. But its still happening. You need to change other attitudes and behaviours too.

Not to mention, I can't imagine stag dos really being much of an issue for Iceland, Norway and Sweden due to the price of alcohol too...

Firstly stag dos don't go places with expensive booze and secondly if booze is more expensive they won't drink as much either.

Perhaps tackling our very British attitudes to alcohol are something we are seriously over looking on the subject on stag dos and sex trade. Both men and women have this weird idea that the amount you drink is directly related to the amount of fun you have. Its a view not shared across europe...

WoundUpLeaf · 18/02/2012 23:58

Nyac: your quote here:

'Why is it a "dangerous" assumption, to note that sexist men who go to Amsterdam for stag weekends generally are there for the public availability of commercial sex in all its forms'

That and other things you've posted came across to me as: 'all men who go on a stag do to Amsterdam or Prague are sexist'.

ANY man with a friend could be invited to a stag do in those two places, ergo you are essentially saying that every man is sexist (as I interpreted your comments anyway). I merely truncated that to 'all men are bastards' for brevity.

AnyFucker · 18/02/2012 23:59

I know you won't reply, WL, but asserting you "are staying on the thread" signposts very clearly that you think I am telling you to get off it

and I find your "what about the sweatshops" mantra to be just as much a silencing tactic as anything I may have said to you

Nyac · 18/02/2012 23:59

It's disgusting the way people are trying to derail this thread and attack radical feminists when there is mass rape of trafficked women going on in places like Prague and Amsterdam and other sex tourism destinations across the world.

The men who do support this trade and take part in these actions should be held accountable by their colleagues, by their friends, by their families. It is not acceptable that a man can jump on a plane to Amsterdam and within hours be visiting brothels where he can help himself to young women trafficked from Albania or Moldova just because their pimps can make a huge amount of money selling women to men like him.

That's the issue. The "rad fems hate men" claims are lies and red herrings.

FrothyDragon · 19/02/2012 00:00

Sexist views aren't affected by alcohol, youareallwrong.

Nyac · 19/02/2012 00:00

Your logic doens't follow WUL. I've actually been very specific about the sorts of men I've been criticising.

FrothyDragon · 19/02/2012 00:04

But Nyac, it's easier for WUL to twist words and make out that rad fems hate all men, just so she doesn't have to think about the views men around her may hold. Hmm

As long as they're "nice" to you, eh?

ilovesooty · 19/02/2012 00:04

I still want to know why the OP is apparently entitled to know what they do on holiday when they aren't even discussing it in her presence at work.

She asked whether the weekend could possibly only involve drinking/drugs and not involve the sex industry. Even she was at pains to point out that she'd be keeping her opinions to herself at work if it wasn't discussed in front of her.

WorraLiberty · 19/02/2012 00:06

Nyac the thread was derailed hours ago

The minute people stopped answering the OP's question..."Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?"....and started posting all sorts of tangents.

It was a silly question anyway because of course it's possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element.

Though why the drug element doesn't seem to concern the OP is a little beyond me.

WoundUpLeaf · 19/02/2012 00:08

Ok nyac, having re-read your posts I think there was some ambiguity and I misinterpreted your intent. So you don't think that all men who go on a stag do to Amsterdam or Prague are sexist, rather those men who are sexist will be likely to avail themselves of the sex industry? If that is the case, then I probably agree with you (although I'm not sure sexist attitude always translates into behaviour).

Nyac · 19/02/2012 00:10

I disagree Worra. The thread is about whether her colleagues are off to Amsterdam to indulge in a spot of sexual exploitation. Addressing that isn't a derail.

On the other hand going on and on about how rad fems hate men definitely is.

youareallwrong · 19/02/2012 00:11

Alcohol has no influence on behaviour.... Ok....

Makes a mental note of that.

ColdTruth · 19/02/2012 00:11

Firstly it's really none of the OP's business what her colleagues do legally, OP you can be upset if you want but what do you want to do about it? You said they do not discuss it in your presence so what is it you want them to do?

And secondly me and my mates have gone for a week in Amsterdam not one of us slept with a prostitute...we did get high though.

Nyac · 19/02/2012 00:12

That's right WUL. I'm sure there are men who look in the window. But the OP is saying these guys have form.

Having worked with men like this in male dominated environment who definitely did go and use prostituted women at various destinations across the world, and who were a bunch of hideous misogynists, I don't think she's overreacting. She's much more likely to be reading the situation correctly.

WorraLiberty · 19/02/2012 00:13

I disagree Worra. The thread is about whether her colleagues are off to Amsterdam to indulge in a spot of sexual exploitation. Addressing that isn't a derail

And in the absence of a clairvoyant, we'll just assume they are off to indulge in a spot of sexual exploitation?

Righto.....

WoundUpLeaf · 19/02/2012 00:13

[Quote]: But Nyac, it's easier for WUL to twist words and make out that rad fems hate all men, just so she doesn't have to think about the views men around her may hold. [/quote]

I've addressed the twisted words thing and it was a genuine mis-reading of a comment. However, my main concern remains, which is that the type of rad fem approach we've been discussing accentuates the difference between men and women which is only the mid-point in achieving equality. To be truly equal, a person needs to be evaluated purely on their own merit, wih no consideration of sex or any other factors that would allow stereotyping. I worry that the rad fem approach heightens the divide between men and women by bringing the demarcation to attention.

FrothyDragon · 19/02/2012 00:15

I'd argue that sexist attitude, more often than not, does translate into behaviour.

I'd say that, of my male friends, family members and acquaintances, the more sexist they are in their views, the more sexist they are in behaviour. Suspect I'm not the only woman with this experience.

WorraLiberty · 19/02/2012 00:18

Frothy

But none the less the OP nor anyone on this thread can know for sure what those men will get up to in Amsterdam.

AnyFucker · 19/02/2012 00:18

I worry that sex-industry apology by women upholds men's sexual abuse of women

You are not a woman though, WUL ?

FreudianSlipper · 19/02/2012 00:18

why are so many not wanting to face facts that the sex industry is thriving in Amsterdam because of their customers from the uk

how many men are going to own up to having sex with a prostitute while on a lads weekend to their wife or partner. no of course not all men are but a lot of men are, who went there 15 years ago or to prague the sex industry grew and what a surprise the amount of men going on men only holidays there grew at the same time. what a strange coincidence

i would bet that most men who happily go to lap dancing clubs here, are willing to pay a women for a private dance would also be willing to pay a women to suck their cock, what is the difference, money for sexual gratification is easily exchanged to a greater level there, both scenarios it is about paying a women for sexual gratification for the customer only, it?s it really that bigger step further or should we believe that lap dancing is all just a bit of fun and a world away from actual prostitution

Nyac · 19/02/2012 00:18

"And in the absence of a clairvoyant, we'll just assume they are off to indulge in a spot of sexual exploitation?"

Well I said it was likely and possible - I didn't say definite. If they don't go to a sex show though I'll eat my hat.

CKR has her excuse now for asking her colleagues what they did. She can say people on Mumsnet want to know what happens on an Amsterdam stag weekend and she thought they could advise.

WoundUpLeaf · 19/02/2012 00:20

Sorry to keep quotin you nyac, but:

'Having worked with men like this in male dominated environment who definitely did go and use prostituted women at various destinations across the world.'

Key words: MEN LIKE THIS. Isn't this just as bad a stereotype as people assuming things about women with blonde hair? It frustrates me hugely to see a self proclaimed feminist not extending the same respect. You want to be judged as an individual, on your own merits (as do I)? Please do the same to others then.

WoundUpLeaf · 19/02/2012 00:22

AF: no, I'm not a woman. But neither am I an apologist for the sex industry (that I'm aware of anyway).

FrothyDragon · 19/02/2012 00:24

We can't know for sure, worra, but if none of them visit a prostitute, brothel or whatever, I'd be surprised.

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