Weekend in Amsterdam - how would you feel?

[cathkidstonrefusnik]

I wasn't sure where to post this - I'd like to have a range of views, so didn't post in feminism. I've name-changed.

Some background first...I work in a male-dominated environment where the view of women purely as sex objects amongst some of my co-workers (not all by any means) is not far below the surface.

It has improved in the year since I've been there, at least when I'm around, largely because I can, and do, challenge inappropriate behaviour - it's public sector, so there are strict policies, and my boss is very supportive, although somewhat unenlightened himself at times.

Anyway, in a few weeks' time, it's one of my co-worker's stag celebration, and a large party are going to Amsterdam. Now, unless I'm getting the wrong idea, this is bound to involve strip clubs, sex shows, possibly prostitutes, isn't it?

Although it's entirely up to them what they do (legally) in their own time, I must admit it gives me the creeps - I'm quite surprised by some of the ones who are going to, among them married men with young children.

Am I over-reacting? Is it at all possible the weekend will involve drinking and drugs without the sex element?

I haven't commented on it negatively in work, and what exactly the weekend involves hasn't been discussed in my presence.

Worra, it's fucking liberty that people work in cramped sweat ships in China

it's not what we are talking about though, even though I am aware it's a topic very close to your heart

perhaps a thread about it ? Sweatshops in China. And perhaps you would be a leetle pissed off when the usual suspects come on and derail it, repeatedly ?

It might go a little like this...

X ?

yeah, X is a bit rubbish sometimes, but what about Y ?. You never talk about Y. It's alllll X, X, X. You should shut up about it, and let the grown ups talk about Y.

The question should be as much about how you can stop stag dos getting out of control, how you encourage men not to get as sucked into egging each other on, and question each others behaviour as much as the issues with the sex trade and the morality of it though.

That's why I said possibly Ilovesooty.

Glad you've dried your tears ujjay. What I said was that sexual exploitation was overwelmingly gendered. It was qualified. I don't know how you'd take issue with that. It's true that it is. The vast majority of people in the sex industry are women being used by men who both buy and sell them. Nobody said there aren't exceptions.

I was talking about commercial sexual exploitation, BTW, not domestic violence or incest. Although both of those are overwhelmingly gendered too.

The sex industry isn't necessarily all bad

There are some people who independently sell their own bodies without pimps or anyone else involved in that transaction, because that's exactly what they choose to do with their own bodies.

Just because there are abused/trafficked people in the industry it doesn't make the entire industry bad.

Just as all clothes/computers/phones/etc aren't all made by abused women and children.

Those willing to denounce the entire sex industry due to the fact some aspects of it are bad, make me wonder why they don't denounce the entire computer industry or clothes industry etc...

It's all very selective given the amount of slavery and abuse that can go on in all of them.

WUL, who said "all men are evil?"

seriously, where did you see that ?

where have you ever seen that on these boards ?

The easy answer to that YAAW is that you criminalise paying for sex the way Sweden, Norway, Iceland have done and hopefully France and Israel are about to.

And Anyfucker that's not the first time you've suggested I 'might like to start another thread' when I've mentioned this.

If I ever get the urge to start another one I will.

Otherwise I'll stay on this one...but thanks all the same.

AF: I didn't make myself clear, apologies. The generalisation comment wasn't about the 'happy hooker' angle, it was more about the 'all men are bastards' angle.

There is no industry that involves paying to rape someone the way the sex industry does in many cases.

Sexually trafficked women and girls are raped women and girls. Any man who has paid to use them is a rapist.

I cannot believe this thread! But entertainment at least.

She has a right to know who she is working and spending time with everyday
What!? So do all of us have to reveal details of our personal lives to our colleagues? And in how much detail??? FFS Hope not! Don't want to tell and don't want to know either.

Agree that the assumption that men going to Amsterdam must be going to have sex is unreasonable and very sexist.It's you that has the filthy mind. I went - and loved it and do you know I didn't pay for any sex!!!

Resent the blanket expectation that middle aged women don't go out and have sex!!! FFS And at what point is a women middle aged in your view Nyac? I wonder if I am there yet and therefore no longer supposed to be having sex.

Also know many people who live in Amsterdam and who don't particualarly like their city being viewed like this. What a ridiculous streotype.

OP - focus on your own life - maybe get to know your colleagues as people and not think the worst of them simply because they are men.

"Glad you've dried your tears"

WTF do you mean by that? You have the audacity to have reported someone upthread for an alleged personal attack and now you make a comment like that? You are basically questioning my sincerity?

"it's true that it is". Why? Because you say so? Can you quote some figures and references to back up your claims? Why are men not subject to exploitation and abuse in the sex industry on the same scale as women? How you know they aren't?

There isn't a single person on this thread who has said that all men are bastards WUL or come close to saying something like that.

Why does objecting to men's use of women in the sex industry bring up cries of man-hating? These kind of men do not, I repeat, do not, represent all men. It's insulting to men to imply that they do.

PS - women pay for sex too BTW

Don't get aggressive with me ujjay. You were bang out of order to claim that the mere fact of me holding opinions was making you cry. If that's your level of engagement in an argument I'm not going to respond to you any more.

Worra, and the next time you attempt to derail a thread, I will probably suggest it again.

Perhaps we should both get off that particular hamster wheel.

And I didn't say you should get off the thread. I said if you wanted to talk about some other subject it might be best to start another thread to discuss it.

You can do several threads at a time, can't you ? I have about a dozen going at the moment.

Nyac you need to re-read your posts if you are going to dare to call anyone up about aggressive behaviour towards others.

Nice side-stepping of the facts and figures request though

AF: nyac's comment earlier suggesting anyone who went on a stag do to Amsterdam or Prague was sexist. Is there any man that any of us knows that couldn't be invited to a stag do to either of those locations?

Busyoldfool, yes, and they are wrong to do it too

Someone starting a post with WTF complaining about being criticised for being aggressive.

You're on my ignore list.

And I didn't say your holding an opinion made me cry. What brought tears to my eyes were the views expressed generally by Rad Fems. The idea that my sons by virtue of having a penis are somehow the exploitative enemy. That's not political or personal progress thats just warped.

"Nyac's comment earlier suggesting anyone who went on a stag do to Amsterdam or Prague was sexist"

That's not what I said. I said sexist men going on stag weekends to Amsterdam and Prague are likely to be there for the easy availability of sexual exploitation.

"Don't accuse me of not caring because I bothered to answer the OP by saying that her co-workers actions outside of the office were fuck all to do with her."

But this is the problem.

Men who pay for sex tend to have a great big sense of entitlement. "I pay for sex, I expect it..." There's a lot of abuse in the sex industry, whether we're looking at porn, prostitution or the strip clubs. This sense of entitlement is, unfortunately, likely to extend into their real lives. Probably extend it on the third date scenario, or, y'know... "I babysat our kids..."

Abuse of any woman is every woman's problem. Because we never know who the next victim will be. You don't just speak up when it affects you. You speak up when it oppresses any woman.

And AnyFucker the next time you use a technique like that to try to close down my opinions, I will reply in the same way.

I know you didn't say 'I should get off the thread'....where did I say that?

Yes I can do several threads at a time and I can also spot patronising sarcasm so I won't be replying to you on this thread any more.

WUL, I agree with Nyac's assertion that it is highly likely that of a bunch of blokes (especially those that have form for their disrespect of women) on a stag do in Amsterdam (named as one of the Sex Tourism Capitals of the World, with very good reason), a proportion of them will avail themselves of the sex industry

I don't see what other words you are trying to ascribe to her, but do enlighten us if you wish

Is that because you can't back up your comments with hard evidence? Anyone can make grand sweeping generalisations but I want to see the facts and figures which prove that women are subjected to greater exploitation than men in the sex industry. Because I seriously doubt you can find them.