to think that if you let the students in your class do any of these things you are doing them a disservice?

[pickledsiblings]

• listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant)
• eat and/or drink (not water obviously)
• get up and walk around at will
• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear)
• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)
• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books
• treat the floor as a bin
• deface books
• break pens etc
• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice)

All opinions most welcome!

Any teachers willing to admit to any/all of these? Would be particularly interested in hearing your justifications.

That is a massive generalisation OP wrt behaviour and independent schools.

The sitations I have described refer to an Ofsted Outstanding comp. I have a much younger sibling who attends an independent - the things that they tell me they can get away with in their classes I would not be tolerating for 1 second (e.g. facebooking during the lesson etc)

Cannot agree more with posters who are saying you teach to the pupils in front of you. It's teachers who can't do this who really struggle.

Does anyone else think that the OP was just a bit of a crap teacher? And because she couldn't deal with those things she assumes we're crap too?

I recently visited a school in Lambeth (Durand Academy) which has a zero-tolerance discipline policy. This is a school of extremely high social need--about 95% are either from families of African or West Indian origin, and over half are on free school meals. Yet every child was perfectly behaved, hard at work, and far happier than kids who are left to run amok by heads and teachers who don't have the will or the inclination to exercise authority.

Alas, schools like this are pretty rare. It's a mystery to me why so many adults insist on making rods for their own backs.

whilst I do not dis-believe what you are saying about this school sparafucile - did you actually see the reality in every lesson?

Even the groups I have whose day-to-day behaviour is not the best know how to put a show on when needed.....

sparafucile

a couple of years ago the school I work at started with a zero tolerance policy, school uniforms, phones etc. within two days parents where complaining about it, within the week parents where sending their kids in wearing trainers.

One pupil said to me that his phone would go off in lesson as his mother was going to ring him about something urgent .

You only need to look in the daily mail to see headteachers vilified for sending a pupils home.

Sometimes the the school can't win.

Dweezle;, in 1983, students with SEN and behavioral difficulties were more likely to be in special schools.

Now, for many reasons, such students are likely to be in mainstream schools.

Hi, just wanted to address the OP's initial list. I work in an inner city state school

listen to music players whilst completing work (unless it's a music lesson/relevant) No never

• eat and/or drink (not water obviously) No never

• get up and walk around at will No I don't allow it but I also can't stop it if it happens. It has happened but very rarely and usually I express such exagerrated horror and shick that they dared get up without permission they usually sit back down The kids that don't sit down usually have more demanding behavioural isues than just walking around

• swear/use foul language to you/each other under their breath (whilst you pretend not to hear) If it was to me they would be removed instantly to an 'isolation unit' and then excluded for anyting between a day to 3

• dry-hump each other (to which you merely raise an eyebrow)single sex school so this would be unusual!

• routinely turn up to lessons with no pens, pencils, books happens ALL the time. You can't stop this no matter how many thousands of oens you hand out. One huge iritation as a teacher is the complete lack of personal responsibility. Even the 'good' kids do not give a shit if they turned up without equipment because they know you will just give them paper if they forgot their book or a pen

• treat the floor as a bin No. I make them pick it up and if they refuse they are sent out and then punishment as appropriate later (one punishment our school has for various infractions is to plave kids in a high-vis vest and do litter picking around the school-they hate it because it's soooooo embarrassing!)

• deface books Happens all the time. I don't really care if it's their own

-break pens etcIf their own I don;t care

• use their mobiles for texting (against whilst you pretend not to notice) Hardest one! Annoyingly in 9 years school has alternated between blanket ban and being allowed to use at break/lunch. At the moment it's a ban but you get a warning. So if it's seen once in a lesson you say 'put it away' and the second time it's confiscated until end of the week

Ooh some annoying spelling errors. sorry...

AGH! Capital after the full stop. Sorry!

What a depressing thread. None of the things the OP mentions are acceptable in a classroom. It's not really about whose fault it is - the teachers', the parents', the head's, the children's - it's about whether your want your child being taught in a class where that kind of behaviour goes on. Personally, I wouldn't.

Also wanted to add, I say I don't allow some of these to happen but of course they have. Kids have listened to their mp3's and eaten and wandered around and littered and sworn at each other.

It's about picking the battles. Most students when confronted will cease whatever inappropriate thing they've been doing. I find a raised eyebrow with a smile or a 'X I see what you're doing. Stop it now' casually while walking past works wonders. Teenagers don't like being called out in front of their peers or humiliated.

But you will always have young people who have been taught at home that their opinions/views/bad attitude is completely okay and no teacher is ever going to be able to discipline them or enforce any rules. Their parents have taught them that they are above the rules. If I'm honest this is becoming more prevalent and hard to combat because you get no support from home. It's not the teacher's job to instill the correct values and attitude in a child aged 15.

I went to a (average - good) comprehensive from 1991 - 1997. I can remember most of these things happening. It didn't stop me getting into Oxbridge.

And my ability to concentrate in difficult circumstances is amazing.

junsab, I couldn't help thinking that the School had at least in part 'failed' the 16 year olds who chose to behave in such a manner.

Pickledsibling- How do you think the school has failed them? Because we are unable to stop them from wandering around? What would you suggest then? Restraints?

I would argue their parents have failed them because they apparently did not teach them to respect their teachers/not to litter/be responsible for their own belongings etc

If you have taught your DD these things, there shouldn't be a problem should there?

My DP is a délégué de classe (parent representative) in DSS1's lycée, which means he gets to participate in all the conseil de classe - a termly meeting where all the teachers from a class discuss the pupils in front of the headmaster, head of year and parent reps. DP consistently says that a handful of teachers complain about disruptive pupils and bad behaviour, and that they are always the least competent teachers that our DSSs complain about. Good teachers don't have discipline problems in the DSSs school.

junsab: "I would argue their parents have failed them because they apparently did not teach them to respect their teachers/not to litter/be responsible for their own belongings etc

If you have taught your DD these things, there shouldn't be a problem should there?"

On the contrary. If the DD is well-behaved and responsible, then why should she have to spend her days in a classroom where other children are wandering around, swearing, eating, listening to music, throwing things on the floor and dry humping each other?

amicissima- You are right abou adults enforcing appropriate behaviour. I do that as I am sure most teachers do. The number of dull lectures I have given to yr 11 students about bringing in equipment even a month before their gcse's! I don't tolerate bad behaviour as I pointed out when addressing the OP's list. There are things I won't let slide such as swearing, rudeness, blatant disobedience of my instructions etc. Those students are removed and dealt with in the appropriate way. However, in order to maintain a balance and actually teach you have to expect to deal with situations as and when they occur. If I caught a student eating, I would not automatially start shouting and punishing and throwing that student out. I would stop her from doing it. If she continued to eat, she would be removed.

The most important thing as a teacher is when you've started somehting you have to finish it. If you are going to confront and threaten a student with a sanction, you HAVE TO follow through or you authprity is lost.

Bonsoir- I find this a typical but simplistic view-X is a crap teacher because they can't discipline or can't discipline because they are crap'. It is not fair on teachers who want to teach and inspire and be creative and pass on knowledge but can't because of bad behaviour. Then they are just labelled by people as crap teachers. It is NOT TRUE that good teachers never ever have discipline problems

Hackmum-Again you are right. It isnt fair when students awho are well behaved have to out up with those who aren't. Unfortunately this is the nature of schools. I haven't seen one teacher on this thread who has said they never see any of the things on OP's list or that they have no behavioural issues in their shcool. I think it is a fantasy if parents exect a classroom to have zero behaviour issues

Bonsoir - as a teacher, I actually find what you say to be insulting. You can't compare the quality of a teacher in a school with good discipline and behaviour with a teacher in a school that has pupils who behave behaviourally like they are zoo animals with no discipline. The crapest teachers can do well with support and the best teachers can struggle in a challenging situation.

I spent a couple of years teaching in a very difficult sink-estate comprehensive where discipline was pretty much non existant (poor SMT support) and the pupils ran riot. I had classes that had been put together as "behaviour classes". i.e. the pupils had issues which included being bottom set/had behavioural issues/were disengaged/had poor literacy skills... My lesson aims sometimes had to resort to "keeping the child in the classroom" and "completing a simple worksheet". I was threatened with a knife (on 2 occasions), sworn at daily, verbally abused, and had a whole host of other issues to deal with that I won't bore you with. I was lucky if I got to teach for 10 minutes out of the hour without dealing with behavioural issues. I left thinking I was a shit teacher who couldn't control my class and seriously considered finishing my teaching career there and then.

The following term on supply (because i quit without a job to go to because I though I was so bad) I was lucky enough to teach long term at the local "Ofstead Outstanding" school, where discpline and respect are hammered into the students. The first day I taught there, I was so shocked that the pupils did what they were told, my lesson ran short by 20 minutes, because I had "allowed" for behavioural issues and I didn't need to, because for once, I could actually teach the pupils properly. 2 weeks after I started, we had an Ofstead inspection where I got graded as "outstanding" and the inspector actually commented on how much she enjoyed the lesson and learned something new. Clearly I'm not that much of a shit teacher, because I regularly get head hunted by the local "good" schools when they need long-term specialist cover.

Until you've walked in the shoes of a teacher and dealt with the issues they deal with on a day-to-day basis, including teaching children, then I suggest that you look a little less critically.

I didn't make any such comparison, QuietTiger, so there is no need to be insulted!

Bonsoir-But what you did say is insulting. Only rubbish teachers have behavioural issues. If you complain about behaviour you are a rubbish teacher. A ridiculous sweeping statement that good teachers don't have behavourial issues based solely on your DSS's school. This is absolutely NOT TRUE!

No, I made no such generalisation. I gave an anecdote, and made no claims whatsoever for it being anything other than that.

Well for one thing, stop calling them "students".

They are not Oxbridge undergraduates for goodness sake.

Education up to 16 is compulsory, so they are "pupils" or "schoolchildren" if you prefer.

Well at my school we call them all sorts-Students/Pupils/Schoolchildren and a few other choice names I won't mention here . We're a bit too busy to be bothered about how we refer to them. Sorry