To Think Living Abroad is Rarely as Good as People Think it Will Be?

[lesley33]

I lived in Switzerland with young DCs. But the country you visit as a tourist and the country you actually LIVE in, are ime often quite different. We came back after 2 years. And I have spoken to many other people who have "discovered" things about living in a particular country that as tourists they were blind to.

For example, a friend returned from France after hating working there as she found the hierarchial, formal, non team working environment very difficult.

Visiting a country can be great and you can love many things about a country - the scenery, being family orientated, etc. But you don't often get to understand the negatives of a country. I have lost track of the amount of people I know or meet who say - i would love to live in x country - without any understanding of the realities. For example - no you wouldn't as x country is well known for having very negative attitudes towards people with SN like your DC.

So AIBU in getting frustrated at this. I know secretly I probably am as I was one of those people.

Lesley33 I am surprised at those who say they love NZ. I think the countryside is gorgeous, but I find the casual racism and homophobia pretty hard to stomache. People talk about it being like the 1950's - well ime it is, both good and bad.

Have you ever lived here, out of interest?

Perhaps it's where you lived or visited but I genuinely have not felt that. I think the town where I live is perhaps quite liberal (it's quite artsy) but I've not lived anywhere else in the country to judge if 'casual racism and homophobia' exist more in other places. I think issues are debated more openly here and I was shocked when we first arrived that people would discuss problems that were prevalent in the Maori community and openly say that they were problems that were largely affecting that part of society. It was shocking because debate is far more 'closed' in the UK. For instance, working in inner-city schools in the UK, it was commonly acknowledged that boys from African-Caribbean backgrounds faced certain problems but you weren't allowed to talk about this openly of this for fear of being perceived as being racist. It took me a while to see that the debates here are not more racist, just more open and honest.

With regards to homophobia, I came across far more in the UK than I ever have here. In addition, I think gay people are afforded more rights here, especially with regards to immigration where the relationship of gay couples carries the same legal standing as straight couples in de facto relationships.

I think the stereotype of it being like the 50s is a bit silly. Perhaps it's that it's friendlier and it's more normal to smile and chat to strangers or there's fewer people but Kiwis tend to be pretty tech savvy and are better travelled than most Brits that I've met.

blenda I like Switzerland too for all the reasons you gave and because it is where my dh, dc, books and kitchen stuff are.

We never came here as tourists though, dh had to work here a lot and then I first came over to look at international schools and then flats, so my head was always can you live here? Not is it pretty or fun for a holiday.

It has mostly felt like a big holiday for me, especially last summer when it was so hot every day and now when we can have snow Sundays.

I think for us it will be a nice place to raise small children, and then when they are older we may move somewhere more jazzy.

lesley why did you move after two years?

With Switzerland many people don't understand that you really have 3 types of countries in one - German Switzerland, French and Italian - and each is very different. I did know this before I went - but your experience of living there will be very different depending on which part you live in.

Obviously there were things I liked - otherwise I would never have moved there. The safety, cleanliness, cars parked out of sight in underground car parks, public transport that ran on time, freedom for kids, etc.

But I think the 2 things that got to me was the loneliness and the conformity. I was a sahm with 2 young dcs. On visits people were fairly friendly. But where I lived people had their own friends from school and socialised with family. Making friends was so so difficult and I felt very lonely. It was made worse by the fact that dcs didn't start school till 7 and childcare was such poor quality, that I felt going back to work even part time wasn't feasible.

Local "nursery" for example was basically 30 kids aged about 4/5 in a large room with 2 adults. No way was I going to use that as childcare.

The rules and quite rigid way you were expected to behave compounded my loneliness. I think it would have been different in a city like Zurich or even without young dcs - buit I literally hated it by the end.

With NZ, dp has family there. I think it depends where you live in NZ - north island seems much more liberal. But where dp's family live I have been shocked at their neighbours and friends attitudes. Some of dp's family who went there from uk also said they found the racism and homophobia hard to stomach and a shock. But it will depend where you live.

When we travelled around it was noticeable that on the north island in the cities there was a large asian population, whereas on the south island it was very white - which is where dp's family live.

Hmm. I guess it's like judging the UK's attitude to racism and homophobia by attitudes prevalent in places like Langley Mill, Heanor and other places that seem to be BNP strongholds. You get narrow minded people everywhere. I live at the top of the South Island and have been mainly been in contact with very lovely, non-judgemental people. Mind you, if somebody can out with something racist or homophobic in my presence they'd get short shrift, so maybe people just don't verbalise their ideas? I'd hate to be that cynical though and I certainly don't believe it to be the case. Might be a generational thing too? I'd certainly not write the country off as commonly holding those attitudes though!

Get thee to Auckland lesley33!

One thing that I think expats can find disappointing is the willingness of local people to socialise with them, even if the local speaks English/the expat speaks the local language. It is hard to break into what are often quite established social groups, and they may not be willing to accept a random- especially one who doesn't speak the language fluently. I know there is a stereotype that "expats only hang out with other expats" but often the reason why this is the case comes from both sides, not just one.

Other expats are, as my friend puts it "always in the market for new friends" whereas locals often aren't, or rather, the need isn't there for them- they already have their friends from school, Uni, work, school, and their family. Therefore they tend to be pickier.

There is a big difference language wise between being able to get by and being able to socialise effectively in that language. My friend's wife is Swedish (they live in the UK) and her English always seemed pretty fluent to me, but she recently confided to me that when she first met her DH she would dread nights out with his friends because she couldnt follow the conversation/understand the jokes.

reallife - Agree. And interestingly the only poster who liked Switzerland mentioned the great ex pat community. Where I lived there were no British ex pats which I thought was a good thing until I had lived there for a while.

Beewi - Of course there are differences in nz, just as there are in uk. Auckland seemed pretty cosmoploitan and mixed racially.

But the casual racism I encountered wasn't just in one place. In Britain if people are openly racist it tends to be either that they know they shouldn't say things e.g. I knopw its not pc to say this but... or it is people who are pretty right wing and obnoxious in pretty much all their views.

I think what I found hard to take was ordinary nice caring people who didn't seem particularly right wing, coming out casually with racist stuff and with no sense that there might be any issue in saying what they were saying.

I am gay and I was surprised that everywhere we stayed except Auckland and Dunedin, a request for a double room was always met with surprise or shock and sometimes continuing fristiness afterwards. And we stayed in a lot of places. It is really rare to encounter this in the UK. Gay friends I have spoken to have also said they had similar experiences.

FWIW I have found NZ no more or less racist than the UK overall. Switzerland, however....

"Local "nursery" for example was basically 30 kids aged about 4/5 in a large room with 2 adults. No way was I going to use that as childcare."

Errrr, isn't it the same in many primary schools in the Uk? Classes of 30 5 yrs old? What's the difference? Also, aren't those for 4/5 yrs old nursery schools?

I didn't find the South island of NZ particularly racist. Rural areas were inclined to treat you a bit like the shop in League of Gentleman "it's a "stranger"", but rural areas worldwide are like this, urban areas tend to be more welcoming and laid back in my experience. We joined local clubs to socialise. I didn't find it 1950s particularly, the women I met weren't 1950s housewives at all.

francas - The local nursery did not have structured activities. It was literally 30 kids in a large room running around with some toys scattered around. The staff basically watched over them. No I don't think this is like a school where there are structured activities, or even a nursery where there are zones such as home corner, sand and water play, etc. It was very loose and chaotic. Might be fine with some, but I was not happy with it.

But I know that in the UK our childcare is highly regulated and thus also very expensive.

And the actual schools when kids started at 7 were ime very good.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I lived abroad (2 different countries, nine years altogether) and I absolutely loved it!!! Yes, it's hard at times but you do adapt, and as someone else said, it can be very enriching.

We came back to the uk a few years ago to be near my parents, but I miss our overseas life desperately, and if family wasn't a factor, I'd be off like a shot tomorrow.

I guess it depends on the individual, how adaptable they are and the place where they are living.

Oh, and there is plenty of casual racism in the uk!

I am from NZ lesley33, and have heard 2 racist comments from adults in my 30 years there. One was from a British expat.

I am starting to feel a little worried that I don't recognise casual racism if it is so prevalent... could you give us an example?

Houdini, your posts really stand out, but i understand why they're extreme especially after you've been through such an abusive situation, well done for getting out. Egypt is hardcore, I've lived there too and, something i['ve rarely admitted to friends, was quite badly sexually assaulted there in public by a group of guiys while WITH my boyfriend and while covered from head to foot in suitable, non-revealing clothing! The (tourist) police simply rounded up the local one-legged beggar, insisted he was responsible and beat him in front of me hoping that this was fair retribution. I cried wiht relief when i saw the familiar BA staff and colours on my plane home the next day..I've never been back either, would like to maybe one day, purely as a tourist and in a v carefully managed way. IThe expereince has not done much for my respect for fundamentalist islam, must admit. i felt so VERY disrespected, purely for my gender/nationality despite my efforts to dress discretely, speak Arabic, learn about the culture. Basically women are treated, realtively speaking, like shit, make no bones about it,if you live there, you see that. Anyone hear yesterday's Woman's Hour about female genital mutiliation in Egypt? think the rate is over 90% how shocking and truly ABYSMAL is that in the 21st century! It incences me how political correctness often goes awry in an effort to be culturally sensitive always at the expense of the human rights of women & children! But i'm going WAY off the thread here...

it is true and hard for people back home to undersrtand that we still ahve to get thro all the household chores/work/arguments/childcare/grind etc but often w/o the support network. it can work out much better but can be a whole deal worse also. strangely, i don't regret my time in Egypt despite what happened but it made me grow up about the reality of being overseas and of the benefits of an open, western democracy..

I sometimes, occasionally, every now and then, think that with my DH and DCs, and with a bloody good broadband connection, I could possibly maybe handle it now. But my nan is getting very frail and things like that make me think "no".

And bugs. One night, towards the end of my time in Greece, first of all there's what the Greeks call (if memory serves), a vromoosa, (a large green smelly beetle), flying around my head. Then a big spider, a fooking great cockroach type thing scratching at the door, then the biggest fuckbastard of a centipede in the whole wide world shot out from under the sofa. By the time ExPig came home, I was crouched on the sofa in a snivelling, shaking heap. I can do bats. I love me some bats. But insects and arthropods and arachnids n shit can rack off. Dad asked me when I was going to visit him in Australia, two minutes after telling me about the black widow infestation under the verandah.

I think I might have said "bugger" and "off".

I've lived in three countries, one of which was the UK. The UK wasn't the best, but it had a lot going for it.

I was at school in the UK for some time, and I confess I could never put my own children through that experience :( I grew up in a much more conservative society where school was a "safe place" with firm boundaries... my school in the UK was the seventh circle of hell in comparison. Girls raped on the playground, lads attacking teachers with chairs, disruption in every single class, etc. Too much for me. My little sister was also bullied appallingly in a way that still scars her today. Luckily I was a stronger personality and didn't attract that sort of attention myself.

That and the GP I went to was always so blatantly nasty to me and my family. I could never understand that. We struggled to adjust to our move & I always felt the GP resented us non-English coming into his office and "wasting his time".

Besides that, I loved the UK. I still miss the food dreadfully. I still buy Yorkshire Tea online and dream about proper pork sausages with Maris Piper mash. Mr Kipling mini apple pies. The chocolate, bread and milk were wonderful. I really miss pub culture, and how really genuinely lovely my [somewhat rough compared to those at home] UK friends were. I miss the shops, and the high streets. I miss the loveliness of the English countryside.

North America is my preference though. People are sweeter, gentler and more innocent here somehow. Very inclusive. Everyone smiles at everyone, helps strangers in the street, loves to chat and make friends. If I could combine the innocence and openness of NAm with the things I love about the UK, it would be heaven.

My home country was and is third-world shithole though. So in answer to your question, YABU, living aboard is often as good as people think it will be... especially if their home is exceptionally shit.

The BBC is also fantastic. I still miss UK television/radio, especially the music programmes.

Yes, YABU. it's MUCH BETTER than I ever dreamed it would be. I moved to England. Haven't looked back. So, you're wrong.

that's very simplistic, she's "wrong"? it depends so much on where/who/how/what..take the time to read some people's experiences (including mine if you like) and see whether you change your mind. Glad it's worked out for you but some experiences can be truly awful, others confusing, still others so-so. great that yours isn't but don't dismiss others' realities.

I've lived abroad since 1986 - first Tokyo and then twenty years in Switzerland, with a year in Southern California in the middle (DH is American). Had our first child in Japan and the second in Switzerland. Giving birth is a good way to get to know interesting aspects of a culture.

It's all been great, but there are degrees of 'abroad' - Switzerland is a doddle compared to Japan. It's also different living in the Italian part of Switzerland compared to Zurich - more laid back, but everything still works. (And I have always had my own washing machine.)

Two years isn't really enough to get to know anywhere, I don't think - you are only just finding your feet then.

I said it had all been great, and it has - but one of these days I am coming back to England. The homesickness has finally got to me.

Lesley, wow, that sounds rather grim.

I

Sorry I can't get over 'girl raped in playground'.

When was this? I am quite avid over news, can you give me a link please?