To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

Bumbleymummy you can always use extreme case for formulations to win an argument.

What we are talking about here is someone who wants their child to go to sleep at a proper time, who is exhausted, whose husband is ill. The advice on here is sensible.

Twice a week I leave DD3 screaming for me at nursery so I can work - does that make me a bad mother? Will she have issues as a result ? Probably not. Sometimes the child has to accept that things are not how they would like because adults lives are more important - they are providing food, shelter, love and guidance and they need sleep to do that.

fgs, Bumbly is judging the idea leaving a child to cry for hours on it's own, I really don't see why that is a personal attack on anyone, it is a line she (and I !) have drawn. The implication from other posters is that if you don't leave a child to cry itself to sleep (and i know lots and lots of parents that wouldn't do this),that

a) you don't have a clue about sleep deprivation, because if you did then you would have got to the point of doing the same

b) your children rule the house and have no boundaries

and

c) you are a smuggy judgypants (believe me I really am not - and i don't think Bumbly is either)

Bumbley - sometimes he has half an hour nap, sometimes he doesnt bother

My point is, that as far as the child is concerned, they need you at night just as they need you in the day and for some reason some people think it is ok to just switch off our parenting instincts at night and ignore our children.

Lotus, I think you are yet another person not recognising that I have been criticising CIO, I have not been as critical of CC which is what the OP and most of the other people on this thread have been suggesting/using. Very few (thankfully) have used CIO. Maybe you should be clear on these things before you allow yourself to get so pissed off and accuse me of suggesting that they are abusing their children which I haven't done at all.

When I was in that position with my ds, he didn't get up either so as he made his noise I'd just stand halfway down the hallway and say"nightnight, sleep time, love you"..he was reassured that I was there but also not going in to him..do what you suggested yourself, just say goodnight again, and do not give in, if you do he'll realise you will eventually give in and he'll just cry and scream til you do..its hard work and can be a bit longwinded but its worth it..remember its for his own good as well as your sanity..best of luck, let us know how it goes..:)

Also, admittedly this thread is about as useful to the op as a chocolate teapot, but it was posted in AIBU. There is a similar post somewhere here atm about how long you would leave your child to cry for, and most of the responses were that they didn't leave their child to cry.

"some people think it is ok to just switch off our parenting instincts at night and ignore our children."

You're the only person who's said that though. The people who have used CIO have said that this isn't the case, they didn't ignore the child, they just didn't go in and settle them, they were aware of what the child was doing and making sure that there was nothing that could be a threat to them. They've done it for one or two nights.

What you say actually implies very heavily that the parents in question are sitting downstairs watching TV, not giving a shit night after night as their neglected child cries and howls. That's not what's happening, that's your rather unpleasent spin on it.

The thing is Hazey you don't have to agree with or understand what other parents do. So long as they aren't hurting or damaging their kids it's really none of your business.

Oooh bad spelling I need more coffee clearly.

We did a sort of controlled crying with both of ours at about 9-10 months and it worked well. I believe teaching your child to go to sleep on their own and sleep through the night is part of parenting. I don't think it helps anyone to have children who can't get to sleep or stay asleep and parents who are tired. Children don't need paents fussing over them half the night, they need uninterrupted sleep. I don't understand the idea that by teaching your child to sleep you are harming them.

Nomorecake -Actually we've been talking about CIOin general and you accused me of judging parents who are 'doing their best'. Looks like you have a threshold for it too though. You aren't really in the position to call me judgey now are you? :)

Norman, again, I have not criticised the CC (not CIO!) method that the OP is using. I have made other suggestions that she may want to try if she doesn't feel comfortable with CC which, she has said herself, she would prefer not to use but I haven't criticised her for trying it. As I said earlier, even though I wouldn't use it myself, I think that going in at short intervals to comfort and reassure (like the OP is doing) is easier on a toddler than a small baby because they are more aware of the concept of you being just outside the door. I don't agree with it but I do not get as judgey about it as CIO which is a completely different thing.

Gribble, what time is it at? DS only recently dropped his nap and it made a big difference to his tiredness in the evening. If he naps any time after about 2 (car journeys usually!) he is always up later. When he wasn't ready to drop the nap completely we just tried to move it forward a bit so that it was before lunch and then made sure we did something active in the afternoon to tire him out! :)

Thanks again Hazey! :)

I don't switch off my parenting g instincts at night - my instinct is ' go to sleep you little bugger I'm on night shift tomorrow'

Bumbleymummy I'm not judging your parenting. I'm judging you as a person. Totally different.

Cly, I believe someone used the phrase, "three nights of hysterical crying" and, as I said earlier, unless you go in to check, how can you know that they haven't vomitted or gotten themselves tangled up or even if they have started feeling a bit poorly!

2rebecca, some of just don't feel that a child needs to be 'taught' to sleep. They know how to do it before they are born! :) Many people have now shared their examples of how their children happily go off to sleep unaided who didn't use CC or CIO. It's the idea that this is the only/best way to do things if y want to avoid

Bumbley - nap, when he has one, is anytime between 1pm - 3pm, for maybe half an hour so not very long at all.

Even when he goes to nursery for full days, where Im told he runs about all day, he doesnt seem any more tired.

Im thinking I might try CC again, I know we cant take much more of this anyway, Im so angry all the time

Right...you do realise that still makes you judgmental? "having a judgmental mother will do your kids harm" you know.

I only ever judge judgmental people. Usually quietly in my head, but I have made an exception for your incredible judgmental attitude.

:( gribble. What time does he get up in the morning? Do you think there was any way you could push his nap forward a bit? Even if it meant waking him a bit earlier? I know DS's cut off is about 2 for him to get tired at the usual time. Maybe your son is similar?

Lol. Your hypocrisy makes me laugh. Thanks for lightening up the thread!

Bloody hell you do have a sense of humour?

:)

Bumbley - he gets up at about 7.30am - 8am but is still obviously tired. Really have tried all sorts - no naps, nap before lunch, nap after, nap earlier / later. He just wont sleep even though he is tired. Its like he just wants me to lie next to him, which would be fine if it was just me and him.

tbh the nursery have said on many occasions that he is really full of energy. He really never stops. I know he'll grow out of it but its a case of who is going to break first, atm its me who's at breaking point.

Well Bumbley, i think you have been reasonable and sensible, and can't quite understand why you have been the target of quite so much venom.

Well of course it's none of my business, but if you post on a public forum, where someone is asking for advice, things like, 'shut the door and he'll sleep' and, 'i would let him cry it out', then I don't see why other people can't come on and say, that they don't agree with the idea of cio and that there are other ways of trying to get as much sleep for everyone.

Hi Gribble, not sure how old your DS is, but mine sounds very similar from the energy point of view, and actually needs to sleep more than the average child because of it! I find that his activity level goes up the more tired he is, and if you weren't aware of this, you would think that he didn't need to sleep at all.

My DS has started to resist naps and bedtime, but doesn't cry when you put him down, he just talks, and will talk and talk and talk until you go and get him up. However, if we have a story and sit in a dark room for 5 mins ( a good hour before others would think he is tired), he will then be able to drift off to sleep much more easily. Same goes for night-time. I had started to put him to bed later in the hope that he would be more tired, but he was chatting to himself for about an hour before going to sleep, but i found by starting his evening routine earlier (5.30) and getting him in bed after half an hour of stories and then sitting in the dark together, he would be drifting off within 15 minutes and so would be asleep before 7, rather than 8.

Basically, i think i am saying that some children, especially very active children, aren't as easy to identify as tired so you need to do it for them. And because they are overtired, this wont happen particulalrly quickly and easily. I have to make sure there is zero stimulation for a good 15 minutes before DS can switch himself off enough to even yawn!

HTH

Bumbley CIO does mean leaving them alone for however long it takes (though I think most people would have a limit, if ours had gone on for more than three hours I think we would have decided it wasn't the right method), but not if they have a dirty nappy or are sick or something. It does not require that you ignore your child, just that you ignore cries for attention for its own sake. We listened for a change in crying. I did pop my head round the door one night because I thought I heard one of them throwing up - but I hadn't, so I backed out quickly. I'm sure some people do shut the door and turn the TV up, some of them may not realise there are things that can go wrong and some of them may be neglectful (and some of them may be doing it because they really can't cope listening to the crying any longer and are concerned they'll hurt their child if they don't). But there are poor ways to follow any method - letting your child stay up and fall asleep as and when and then all falling asleep on the couch with them isn't ideal either. But that doesn't mean letting your child fall asleep downstairs is neglectful - just that you should try to avoid falling asleep with them. Parents can (and generally do) make all sorts of paths work well. We had several different nighttime approaches and tried to do each of them well. The one we probably put our kids at most risk with was co-sleeping, but that was because we did it poorly, when we were totally exhausted, not because co-sleeping is a bad method, it's not.

Part of the point you're missing with the blanket judgement is that not all children are calmed in all situations by their parents cuddling them or sushing them, or even being with them. I was surprised (and somewhat hurt) to find this out when I became a mother but I have since found that it's not unusual. When mine were tired they found it disturbing. Other people were stimulating not necessarily reassuring. Before we did CIO they weren't quiet and happy that we were there, there was plenty of screaming, we were just in the room for it, we weren't helping and it wasn't changing. I don't think we would have gone with CIO if we hadn't found that our other methods didn't work.

One of the things that made me realize I might be more of a hindrance than a help was when I was on my own with them and they were both crying, if I concentrated on trying to get one to sleep, the one I was "ignoring" would settle before the one I was paying retention to. Before I had my DCs I thought I would be co-sleeping and napping with them during the day. But when we found that meant no one got enough sleep and that was putting our kids at risk, being responsive parents, we took stock of our children and ourselves and adapted. And we still adapt as things change.