To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

sorry, suchprospects, 3 hours seems like an awfully long time to me, no wonder some children cry to the point of vomiting.

Someone posted about leaving a child screaming at nursery... that is different as there will be people there he has bonded with (one hopes) who will comfort him.
CIO is where you completely leave the child alone. That's different, right?

Just out of interest - for those who wont let their children cry - what do you do about tantrums? The ones where they want something, but you cant give it to them becasue it's dangerous / not convenient / bad for them?

And i mean proper melt downs where distraction doesn't work...

"no wonder some children cry to the point of vomiting"

The person who mentioned that said that it took two minutes from starting to cry to vomit, not crying from hysteria after hours and hours. You appear to be trying to fit things into your "neglected children" narrative without them actually being said.

sorry, I didn't see that, but 3 hours still seems like a long time, whether they vomit or not!

I have nowhere said i believe that children that are left to cry it out are neglegcted.

There isn't much you can do when dcs have those major, meltdowns, except wait it out, but ime it is a very different thing to screaming/crying at night.

well here's another in the 'never left them to cry' camp. Yes I sometimes lay down with them and fell asleep - as did their dad - at least we were getting sleep (used to wake whoever was on the edge of a child's bed to come to the more comfortable one!).

Have to say I'm of those of you whose toddlers are so psychologically advanced that they understand the rules of 'game playing' and social manipulation - mine used to cry because they were distressed and needed comfort.

As for long term damage - I have some interesting questions in my head about what you are teaching children when engaged in this kind of sleep training? In my world view if I'd left mine to cry I would have been teaching them

• that it is pointless asking for help when distressed because no-one will come (how many threads on MN from people who see no way out of situations and don't feel able to tell parents or ask parents for help?)
• to keep a "stiff upper lip" when scared or upset and not let anyone see how upset you are - very British, Queen, country and Empire! (how many MN threads with complaints about emotionally constipated partners?)

instead I hope I taught them that if they were upset I would be there for them and that it is ALWAYS OK to ask for help and comfort - that the world is a friendly place, not hostile and that good relationships and kindness are the key to a happy life.

I learned a lot, pre children, from our Vet who told us when we got our first puppy that yes, you could put it in a crate and it would eventually stop yowling - but that dogs were pack animals and that would be cruel. It had just been removed from its mother, so a basket by the side of the bed was the method he used, with a hand free to pet it when it was scared. If I wouldn't leave a puppy to cry I certainly wouldn't leave a child.

And no the dogs and children don't sleep in my bed or even my bedroom no room with the cats sprawled out they all were gently and gradually moved to their own beds.

Why though? If you have checked your child to know that they are not ill, wet, scared etc. Why is it different to a child who cries because you have taken away something that he wants during the day, it just happens to be nightime and what you have taken away is you / your attention - i.e. you to rock him, stroke him, sit with him? When it is exactly the same as having to teach your child that some things are not good for them, and they cant have them just because they want them?

Irrespective of right and wrong of CIO or CC - it is much better and healthier for a child to get the correct amount of sleep, and if the only thing that will help them get that sleep is the removal of the thing they want (you) and this results in crying, you are actually harming your child if you give them what they want, and they use this as a excuse for not going to sleep.

This is all last resort territory anyway, so i would assume that most people posting as the OP had, had tried eveerything before posting in the first place! So coming on and saying crying at night is cruel and tantamount to abuse (and i am sorry Bumbley, you have very much implied this) is really unhelpful and obviously going to put peoples backs up.

Why has this turned into Bumbley's thread

Lecce - how did you get on last night?

Sigh...leaving a child to cry for hours Lotus, hours with any reassurance comfort. Sorry, I don't have time to address all other points but I agree with Hazey and I don't think taking away a teddy/toy or some unsuitable food from a toddler can be compared to taking away its parents and it's soure of comfort and reassurance at night.

Lotus your question about tantrums?

I am someone who never left DDs to cry. If they had a tantrum, I would stay with them, telling them that when they have calmed down they can do x, y, z and have a cuddle. I found this meant tantrums lasted for a very short time and they would then have a cuddle and we would all get on with our day.

The thing I find hard to understand is all this crying that goes on with toddlers/babies. Mine hardly ever cried because they knew I/Dad/grandma would be there for them to stop the crying.

I had a neighbour who had a DS the same age as my DD. I never left my DD to cry, therefore she hardly ever cried. My neighbour used to leave her son crying for about half an hour at afternoon nap and bed time. Then she would complain ot me that he was always crying

I just don't get it.

"Mine hardly ever cried because they knew I/Dad/grandma would be there for them to stop the crying."

Projecting your reasons onto your babies as to why they're not crying doesn't actually make it true you know. And incredibly insulting to people who have babies who cry even though all needs that are possible to meet have been met.

QuickLookBusy - in fact, I wish I'd had you around when my 2 month old DD was howling her eyes out from 6PM to 9:30PM every night, despite the fact I was cuddling her, walking up and down with her, singing to her, doing absolutely everything that I could think of (not all at once!) to soothe her, and explained to me that she wouldn't be crying if she'd known I was there for her. If only I'd had you to show me the way.

Ok, I do not believe that people that leave their babies to cry are commiting child abuse or neglecting their children. I know that most people will only do this when they have got to a point of utter despair at lack of sleep (although in rl I also know a few people who thinks this is just what you do, because ptherwise the babies/child witll think they are in charge).

I also don't believe that babies or children only cry when their needs aren't met - my dd1 cried all the time when she was a baby, because of colic, then because she just seemed pissed off to be a baby, dd2 was never much of a crier, but since she turned 3 had the most almighty meltdowns, huge screaming, can't get through to her explosions, and ds cried for the first 6 months because of silent reflux (silent, ha!).

But I just hate the idea of cry it out, it is not something I could do. Ds is up a lot at night, so I know how it feels to be sleep deprived, but I just could not do it.

I have read all the thread.

\I think it's crazy that people think that leaving a toddler to cry for 3-4 nights max would result in them thinking that you weren't there for them when they needed you. You are simply teaching them to self-soothe which laying next to them does not, hence you having to lay next to them again if they wake.

With a short period of angst, toddlers can and do learn to sleep themselves and can settle themselves when they wake in the night. It is simply teaching a very small amount of independence.

And tantrums, I ignore them if she doesn't have an audience her heart is never in it, I'm not sure bribing them with doing things after they have finished crying is a good lesson - if you kick off you get stuff!

My DS screamed continuously for almost 4 months I rarely put him down, rarely slept and drove myself to a bleak pit of PND. I actually think if I had "left" him to cry in his cot, shut the door and taken a breather we would have all been happier. He , I believe with hindsight, was actually fretful and tired and knowing him as I now do was actually mithered and irritated by my attention and would have settled better on his own. Not all children are the same.
Oh and DC2,3 and 4 were regularly "left" to cry by virtue of having to wait whilst I dealt with the others and were considerably less high maintenance as a reult.

Sorry I realise my last post sounded ridiculous. I'm not expressing myself very well. I was thinking about bed times only. Of course mine cried if they were ill/hurt themselves etc. And I suppose I was lucky in that if mine woke in the night/wouldn't settle I only had ot bring them into our bed and they would go straight back to sleep.

I have never tried CC, but maybe I would have done if my DDs hadn't settled in my room. I did say further up thread to the OP that she should try what is best for her and her baby.

Clytae If your 2 month old was crying for hours every night then that must have been dreadful.

Totally agree overlooked, have 4 dcs none of which magically slept through without using cc method. Works a dream. Be strong, parenting isn't about taking the easy route it's about teaching boundaries and behaviour and defiantly not giving into tantrums and blackmail.

All the bollocks on it being so bad to let a healthy child cry in order to learn to settle itself to sleep or it being taught it can't have every toy or sweets at the shop always makes me laugh. What sort of teens do you think this will produce? Manipulating spoilt brats!

My 2 Dcs are now past teen stage and got boring jobs to fund uni, washing up in cafes, some of their friend gave up similar jobs after 1day as so spoilt by parents.

I am a cm now and love my job but am sometimes left breathless at the way some of the children behave when their parents show up, rude, naughty and tantrum, and they have been Angels with me all day , polite, happy and cooperative.

Don't let your toddler rule u or all too soon u have a 6 foot teen ruling you.

My DS is almost 14 months and has never been left alone to cry. He is at the point now where he will cry out of frustration because I won't let him have something or I have taken something off him. I usually try to distract him with something more suitable and he stops being upset. As he gets older I expect I will do what QuickLookBusy does.

In answer to the poster who had a crying 2 month old baby - that's generally what 2 month olds do... growth spurts, needing comfort, wind and so on can mean a small baby cries and cries - at least you were there and you were offering comfort. Would you have left that 2 month old all alone for those 3 hours to just cry? No - you walked up and down and soothed the baby.

My DS went through a period where we seemed unable to help him, he was about 2 months old. All we could do was what you did. It passed.

"What sort of teens do you think this will produce? Manipulating spoilt brats!"

Where is your source for this? There is, I believe, some evidence to show that children who are parented in an attachment parenting style are more secure people as adults. Will try to find it.

Can just add 2 months is too young to do anything other than cuddle IMO, cc works from 6 months plus but the ops dc is over 2 and so well old enough.

Thebody sorry but your post is what makes me really cross about this kind of discussuion. You are saying you have to teach a baby not to cry, use CC OR you will produce a selfish spoit teenager. You are talking utter rubbish.

My DDs were never left to cry, I/DH stayed with them until they slept, we co slept. DD2 stayed in our room until she was 2 and half. Is she spoilt ans tantrum throwing? No

She is now 18, has just had 5 offers for top universities, is saving for a charity trip to teach DC in South America, vounteers for a local charity and has a part time job. She is also the kindest, least spoilt teenager you will ever meet.

Best source of all love, my own observation. Been a parent for 22 years, have 4 children. Trained nurse working in district and paediatric field, childminder for 4 years do literally met and know dozens of children from birth to now young adults.

To be honest I kind of ignore so called experts since being told in 1989 by a doctor to put my new born on tummy!

There are all sorts of theories spouted about child rearing but only a few absolutes, children thrive best in a loved, calm, disciplined, environment with confident parents who rant too lazy or afraid of teaching boundaries.

Hazel, 3 hours seemed like a long time to me too. But as I have mentioned, several times, they were crying anyway. I had 3 hours as a limit in my head because we regularly had evenings when they cried for that long when we were with them. My thought was that if they didn't actually settle faster without us then CIO probably wasn't a good method for them.

In general I would say if trying to get children to sle through in theirown bed, CC or "no-cry sleep solution" or other methods are likely to be better than CIO for most children (and parents), it just wasn't for mine. And the OP has tried gentler approaches, but it sounds like her DC is not getting what he needs from them. So a more clear cut boundary may work better for them. Constantly getting up when you need to sleep and having irritable parents all weekend is not a great situation for a family and may well lead to more than a few hours of extra tears. I'm not surprised the OP feels like she needs to do something different.

I think it's a bit much to leap from letting your child cry because they are tired and need to sleep to predict they may have some attachment disorder in the future.

Attachment disorder comes about when a child is neglected - if crying caused it then most children in daycare would be showing it.

Really a you are doing is establishing boundaries and this does require a certain amount of crying and sadness. Much better to have this for a period and have a happier, rested family.

I work night shifts and have three young children. I have been do tired at work that I thought I would vomit. Even now it's there like a fog around me but I can't leave DD3 to cry as neighbours complain and she wakes her sisters.