To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

Yes, even if he doesn't get out of bed, just call (not too loud) from the bedroom door, "Night, night, it's time to sleep now," and do so with no fuss, no cuddles, no nothing, until he gets the message.

Give yourself a break, he's gone from co-sleeping and BFing to sleeping in his own bed without a BF, thats a big step. The change won't be 100% as you want it overnight.

Try as hard as you can to be consistant. Also try to be calm and make going to bed an enjoyable, predictable time for him... even though it can be stressful, don't let him see it as it'll keep him awake. He needs to see that you're confident in what you're doing.

Step by step, one walks far!

I agree with supernanny techniques but also what worked for us was slowing down the bedtime routine and explaining at each stage what we were doing - eg: "now its time for a bath and then it will be story time and then cuddles and then bed" and getting him to repeat it and we would say it again after bath "stories, cuddles then bed" and then after stories too so he would know what was coming. This could help make things easier too. HTH

We had similar problems with DD2 at this age after previously sleeping very well from a young age. We tried everything to get her settled but the 'cry it out' method is the only one that worked. We put a gate at her door and intially she was falling asleep by the gate but then waking every time we tried to put her in bed, so then we got a bed guard and literally barricaded her in. Once we had done that it took about 2 nights for her to realise that when she was going to bed she had to stay there. (she isnt barricaded in any more!!)

Good luck its not easy and it is soo hard to hear them distressed but beyond the crying my DD was just trying everything she could to get a little extra 'mummy time'. It will pass though you just need to be strong!

I was browsing Jojo Maman tonight and noticed this 'star/moon' projector product. Basically a frog or butterfly with battery powered light shining through plastic panel on their back that's studded with star and moon shapes. The comments from reviewers were eulogistic about its positive influence on poor sleepers.

A shallow response to a serious problem, but thought it wouldn't hurt to share. I was thinking of getting one for our DS. Also Feng Shui says head NW for deep sleep. Another 'I don't care if it's bollocks it's worth a go' suggestion...

Hope things improve; hugs to you.

No offence but if you have been trying all sorts of different things then its not really surprising he is kicking up a fuss. Just because one of your methods doesnt work one night, dont give up on it.
I live by supernanny rules because my son turned into a monster at bedtime when we put him into his first ever big boy bed.
Write down a step by step guide to your bedtime routine and stick to it. Always give him a warning aswell so bedtime doesnt suddenly come as a shock to him, like 5 mins then we are going to go and brush our teeth ready for bed.

Ok his has sussed out that bf is no longer on the agenda so he has worked out a new way to get you in his room which is really his goal. Second what others have said, no eye contact, don't talk, make it brief and limit the toys to 2. Then cc. Make sure he knows you are there if he needs you but set boundaries. I expect he will start asking for drinks or something else if toys are no longer being provided when asked. It is 100% normal and you will get there I promise!

He needs to know bed=sleep.
Therefore no toys, no moon projectors no talking or any other entertainment. Another vote here for Supernanny!

Oh and I don't know why you think the years with babies/toddlers are the best years of parenting.Definitely not IMO

St. Tanya of Byron said that with this sort of behaviour/change, it gets better and then SUDDENLY gets worse than it's ever been as they try desperately to get back to their previous state of being in control. And you just have to stick RIGIDLY with what you dud when it first worked, until the regression passes.

Agree with all the others who say not to give him any attention at all. If he's not getting up, just go in, hand on forehead and tell him it's bedtime. You have to be really tough. It might get worse before it gets better, but shouldn't take your whole half-term. You have to both be together on this. DH can't go in and give him stuff unless you've agreed.

I was like another poster when we had this for a short time with DD after she'd been ill and been in our bed for a few days. He had to be really tough and stop me giving in, but it really was only for 2-3 days.

I do wish you the best of luck. You just have to say to yourself "this, too, will pass".

have you thought about a referral to a sleep clinic, e.g Millpond, if you aren't able to manage it yourselves?

it does sound like he gets some confusing messages e.g lets choose some toys/snugglies etc at bedtime - this indicates playing and then he starts asking for a toy dino etc, when actually you want him to go to bed and go to sleep not play with toys/snugglies. he asks for toys when in bed and sometimes you give them to him and sometimes you don't - its all very confusing for a 2 year old!

If you go on the Millpond website there is a video about a little girl called Megan you can watch - the first thing they did was to make her bedroom a sleeping room not a playing room (as dandelion suggests - don't introduce novelty lights/toys etc)

www.mill-pond.co.uk/ similar to the supernanny technique - but you have to stick with it - you say when he wakes up you are in his room for an hour - he is therefore being rewarded for waking up by lots of attention (positive or negative) from you. You really need to get a strategy e.g supernanny, and stick with it . He can only lie on top of you all night if you let him! When your DH tried to put him to bed, he got in with DS! This is all so confusing for your DS - no wonder he tries every trick in the book - they work!

You are the parent here - he isn't going to magically go to sleep just becaue you want him to - you need to get some structure around sleeping in place and most of all, stick to it. Do not give up OP - you can do it and you will be sooo glad you did but you really need to get a firm grip on the situation. Hiring a night nanny to help you get into a good routine may also help? STart tonight - good luck

oh you poor thing....... my DS was a terrible sleeper (hes still not great) and when DD was born he would wake up 6-7 times a night. She as a newborn was only getting up twice. After 4 months of this, I honestly couldnt cope anymore being woken every hour. So reluctantly we did CC. My HV was a sleep expert as well, and I know HV do get slated, but ours was amazing. She gave us all these recommendations to give him main meal at lunch, sandwhiches for tea. High GI snack before bed (oatcake / banana) and then we did CC. she told me that it would take about a week. DS was 18months old at this point and it took 3.5 weeks. If I had had to do it on my own then I would have cracked, but she called me every day and told me to keep cal, and kind, but not give in. And it worked....... He still does try it on a bit (now 4) and soemtimes I will relaise that we have slipped back into bad habits, but it only takes about 20 mins for 1 night to fix it now.

Make him realise that he is loves and cared for, but night time is for sleeping. Talk about it during the day, and we also had one of those GroClocks which was amazing (if the sun is not up, then you need to stay in bed). also around 3 we could "bribe" him! So things like - if you sleep in your bed all night you get a star, when you have this many stars you can have Jessie from Toy story, a new DVD, Lego etc....

I know its tough and heartbreaking, but if you arent consistant then it will be years of this nonsense. if you stick to your guns, it will be over ina week or two. Good Luck !

Recall your original post OP. you have to be tough if you arent this isnt going to magically stop. used CC technique with all 3 of mine and the worse couple of nights were just before they stopped doing it. it took 8 nights up to almost 3 weeks with my 3 and it was really horrible to do but you have to do it and you have to do firmly. so what if he is crying? he isnt ill, he hasnt hurt himself he is just throwing a tantrum. start tonight and stick to it for 3 weeks and let him know that this isnt a battle he is going to win. dont linger in his room, dont wait on him hand and foot by bringing up the toys he wants, when he wants, don't put in distractions in his room. bedtime is for sleeping. you will have at least 3 or 4 nights when it is hellish but you know this and you can do it. i tell my kids - this is not a democracy it is a dictatorship - always made me feel better anyway! good luck and start planning for tonight.

It's strange that so many people wouldn't dream (they say) of giving into a toddlers tears or tantrums during the day yet are horrified by the idea of CC at night?

Your son needs uninterrupted sleep and so do you. At that age I would explain to him that you won't be coming in any more and that night time is for sleeping. I would then let him cry out, I would be surprised if it took very long.

My DS has always been an awful sleeper. At times I have felt like I was losing my mind and I am a sahm. I was previously a teacher so I can imagine how hard it is to do such a demanding job with little sleep.

We have basically had to ignore my DS. He is now 2.8 and still doesn't sleep through but when he wakes we just ignore him. Initially he could keep up his shouting for around two hours but now is only awake for a couple of minutes and goes back off. We did controlled crying with him to get him off at night and although it took about two weeks he does now go to sleep without any fuss.

I would suggest one special bedtime toy (this really helped my son) and a regular story. Perhaps the same one each night to try and keep the routine. Then you are just going to have to ignore because he won't stop this of his own accord. You could try sitting in the room but facing away at first so he knows you are there but give no attention. Then gradually retreat. I think you have to be consistent and keep trying because habits like this aren't broken overnight.

Good luck! I hope things improve soon and I do know exactly how you feel. I contemplated ebaying my child for a while.

We have a nearly 3 yo who we have managed to get to sleep without using any CC methods. We have stories then tucked in (with teddies if wanted) the lights go out and we lie beside him with our head on the pillow and just do 'sleep breathing' - deep, slow breathing. If he tries to talk he just gets a sssshhhhh and a pat/head stroke. If he tries to get up, he gets put back down. The room is pitch black and we don't talk. It takes him 5/10 mins max to fall asleep and then we can tiptoe out. We leave the door open a bit with the hall light on so if he does wake then he isn't in pitch darkness without us. At the start it might have taken 20 minutes him to go to sleep but the fact that the room is dark and there is no interaction means that it's pretty boring for him! We also watch him rather than the clock for bedtime. He goes down between 8 and 8.30 depending on how tired he is. We realised quickly enough that trying to put a boy to sleep when he isn't tired does not do anyone any favours! :) I think the fact that we are in with him means that he isn't scared and doesn't feel alone. Ds1 is older and goes to sleep by himself with no problems but I think at 2 they are still little enough to need a bit of reassurance while they drift off...just my opinion fwiw.

My DD was a terrible sleeper at this age, I send you sympathy and hugs

Again, the only thing that worked was no eye contact no talking just putting her straight back in bed and letting her cry

It took about 2 weeks of doing it consistently but it did work
I know it's reay hard especially at night when everything is louder but it will work.
I know it's no consolation now but my DD is now 14 and the problem now is getting her out of bed
It's so tiring esp. as you work full time but it will get better.

at how many people let their little ones cry themselves to sleep.

Lots of sympathy here just being going through the same thing.
we basically did the limited/no eye contact version- go in , lie DS down if he was standing up and say its night time its time to sleep and then leave - regardless of whether he was crying ( bumbleymummy- don't think that is particulrly helpful - no-one leaves a child crying unless there isn't a choice and it is very hard). It has taken a while (and am not convinced we are entirely there) but everyone is happier and not as tired.
I also slightly changed things in that DS loved coming to bed with us and sharing the pillows so we gave him his own pillow.
and should confess as well we were aided by the babymonitor not working for a night (was under a cushion) so I may have left him crying by mistake ...

I should also mention that DS2 used to be bf to sleep so DH started doing the above bedtime with him so that the association was broken otherwise he would have been trying to get milk when I lay down beside him. He didnt ask for it when I wasn't there. I could do it after about a week or so and he didn't ask for milk.

Tom, my point is that there IS a choice. I shared our experience with our very wilful 2 year old that didn't involve CC. Are only supporters of CC allowed to contribute so you can all back each other up?

How many of you would ignore your 2 year old during the day or leave them in a room by themselves if they were scared? Most of us don't let ur toddlers out of our sight during the day. To expect them to go to sleep on their own in a dark room when they are upset is a bit much IMO and not necessary.

tbh you need to toughen up a little and not give in (but well done for getting from your bed/co sleeping to his own and stop bf)

basically he is trying it on with you and dh - and you both MUST do the same thing, no point you saying no to dino and dh giving it to him - he is underminding you!!

pick one or two toys and stick to that number

go into the room and say its bedtime now and walk out

cc is harsh but it does work - i do a lot of retraining babies/children and can say hand on heart i have always managed to retrain a child in 2 weeks or less, if doing the same thing every night - tbh normally take 5/6nights

yes you may have 2weeks of hell/screaming/crying etc but then you will get full nights sleep after that

Or you could do it without any crying or screaming....

DS2 coslept too. We think his is why lying beside him and breathing deeply helps him fall asleep becaue that is what he is used to and that is what makes him feel happy and secure when he is drifting off to sleep. Taking everything away in one go (milk and company) is a big jump.