To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

Quick, both me and dh were and still are doing long hours with jobs that require concentration and skill, if I had been up half the night I couldn't have functioned.

The original post was about a desperate mum of a crying 2 year old and it's not unreasonable to allow 2 year olds to cry.

My point is that children will run you ragged in all areas if you allow them to, over bedtime, food etc, that's normal. But it's a parents job to guide and set boundaries.

I ignored tantrums full stop with my own Dcs and do with the minded children so consequently they don't do it.

I just hate to see lovely children spoilt by daft parents as seen so many times.

Thebody What sort of teens do you think this will produce? Manipulating spoilt brats! That's as ignorant and judgy a comment as bumbley's negligence claim. There is no more evidence for this than that leaving a child to cry is bad for them.

OP you just have to ask yourself, do you want tone in the same situation in 6 weeks, 3 months, 6 months etc. I am sure the answer is a big no.

The no talking slow retreat works, not pandering to his needs or ignoring him. He needs to learn to sleep with your help.

I have two ds's now 5 and 9, both buggers in the sleep department, we did the slow no talk retreat thing, hours and hours spent on the landing sitting and ignoring him, he could see us but we did not interact with him, he had a stair ga53 on the entrance to his room, he would scream and howl at us for this toy, more milk, story etc etc but we firmly said no it's sleep time three times then nothing more. It works, keep at it as it works, then it comes back for a bit but then it works again.

They are now both totally brilliant at bedtime, 10-12 hours a night a great sleep and they go to bed easily and without fuss. And hey guess what!? Not damaged or traumatised in any way, in fact the opposite, bedtime is a good thing, they enjoy the process of it.

I know how you feel it's utter disparity and bone marrowly achingly tired and frustrated, I sobbed for an hour or so once in a supermarket car park as I was at the end of my rope wither it all.

Quite frankly fuck all these on this thread about damaging your child if you leave them to cry, it's utter crap.

You can and you will be able to do this, then you wil feel better and your ds will feel better I totally promise.

Or you can come round to my house and kick the shit out of me, ok?

I would never have left mine to cry as babies. But at 2.5 ish, my daughter was verbal and understood we had not abandoned her. I would go in at first to reassure and sing her back to sleep - this was usually all that was needed. But she did have a couple of days of making more fuss.

I did go in every 10 mins for an hour and try to settle her - she wasn't ill or anything just unsettled. But in the end I said I was going to my bed next door to read my book as I was very tired and I would not be coming back in until morning time. I left and shut the door. She wailed for a bit then dropped off.

"Best source of all love, my own observation. Been a parent for 22 years, have 4 children. Trained nurse working in district and paediatric field, childminder for 4 years do literally met and know dozens of children from birth to now young adults.

To be honest I kind of ignore so called experts since being told in 1989 by a doctor to put my new born on tummy!

There are all sorts of theories spouted about child rearing but only a few absolutes, children thrive best in a loved, calm, disciplined, environment with confident parents who (Aren't?) rant too lazy or afraid of teaching boundaries."

oh - I see.

Thanks yelling!glad uiked my post.

Just out of interest your dc is 14 months? Think u said!

Your vast experience of parenthood obviously entitled you to take the piss!

Never mind love, u will learn!!

thebody you sound like someone from Victorian times with all this talk of DC "running you ragged if you let them"

I have never thought of either of my babies as trying to run me ragged. I saw them as babies who, as with every other mammal in the animal kingdom NEEDS to be with their mother/adult. They aren't spoit they are just behaving as nature intended.

As I said, just because you go to your baby/toddler when they cry, does not mean your child will turn into a spoit brat.

Actually I was objecting to the 'Love' and the anecdotal evidence passed off as research.
Of course my meagre 14 month experience as a mother leaves me at a disadvantage to someone with all the experience like yourself. Well done you. Have a nice day.

Sorry Yuleing, but it does. Do you not consider that you know more about parenting than someone who has no DC's or a 2 month old? I think it's fairly common to accept that someone who has older children has more experience of parenting than you.

Int he case of my DM it doesn't necessarily make them right - AKA it doesn't mean that we agree on everything, but everyone is as right as any other in the raising of their children - they know them best after all. I just hate the AP stance of 'you are damaging your kids if you dont do it OUR way'. But that goes for any fundamentalist belief. Do as you would be done by i say...

"I think it's fairly common to accept that someone who has older children has more experience of parenting than you."

in which case I declare, based on my 22 yrs experience of parenthood and years studying child development that thebody is totally wrong on the CC issue.

sorted?

you know what Lotus, I don't think I have said anywhere that I know more about parenting a two year old than anyone else, I will leave that kind of talk to people like TheBody.

I have simply saiud that I don't think it is right to say that not doing things like CC will result in Manipulating spoilt brats and that I don't think anecdotal evidence should be passed off as Fact, and that there is other stuff out there which says children who are parented in an attachment style grow up to be secure adults.

I have also only said that I would not want to leave a child crying for 3 hours or even one. I poersonally could not do it and would never advise anyone else to do so.

I am not trying to have an argument with the more experienced mothers on mumsnet, they may well believe that their experience is greater than mine will ever be. My belief is that Controlled crying is not nice and not the only way.

I am also trying not to be a dick about it.

'...am sometimes left breathless at the way some of the children behave when their parents show up, rude, naughty and tantrum, and they have been Angels with me all day , polite, happy and cooperative.'

TheBody, this is completely normal and developmentally appropriate behaviour for small children. It's called letting off steam. It happens when children are in transition. It is not an indication that they are normally bratty with their parents, or that their parents are more indulgent than you are, it's just that adjustment to leaving your house and going home with their parents is not as smooth as it would be for older children or for adults.

I have 21 years experience (almost 22 at this point) of parenting 5 DCs and would like to second the opinion of Catsrus wrt the cc creed and 'them against us' philosophy of TheBody. My children have had very smooth teenage years (so far).

I think what I am seeing from this thread is that it really doesnt matter what you do because by the time DCs go to school they will develop completely different sleep patterns. When they get to teenage it will quite probably change again.

If you find that your DC wont sleep then why not keep them downstairs with you? You can still have grown up time, tidy the toys away, dim the lights, put what you want on the television pour a glass of wine. DC soon get the message that there is nothing exciting going on and they arent missing out on anything. In this situation mine were happy to be cuddled to sleep then carried up to bed.

If they disturb once asleep then they come back down to a quiet room with dim lighting. Another cuddle then back to bed. If they disturbed once we were in bed then they came in with us. This soon stopped once they were at school.

So long as you arent locking your DC in the coal shed no matter how tempting what happens when your DC is 2.6 is probably not that important when they are 5 and starting school.

Let's all agree on one thing , clearly every poster on here is a great mum who obviously cares deeply about their children's happiness even if we disagree on methods.

And if we all parented the same mumsnet would b a yawn feat.

"If you find that your DC wont sleep then why not keep them downstairs with you? You can still have grown up time, tidy the toys away, dim the lights, put what you want on the television pour a glass of wine. DC soon get the message that there is nothing exciting going on and they arent missing out on anything"

If I brought my DD downstairs, dim lights, grown-up TV and anything else not withstanding, she would toddle around, get the toys out again, want to play a game then once she gets too overtired, get really grumpy and have a tantrum because I wasn't paying her attention.

Likewise, the one time I brought her into our bed, she slept for about 45 minutes then woke me up (at about 3AM) by patting me firmly on the head repeatedly and wanting to go and play. She was very happy and giggly but not at all ready to be cuddled to sleep.

It's all fine if it works for you, but I've never co-slept and I've never had DD downstairs when she's meant to be in bed, so these options would not work for her at all, she'd find them a lovely exciting novelty, but not really anything to do with sleep.

Castrus, surely to god your 22 years of working in child care can't possibly entitle u to say one method of child care I,e cc is 'totally wrong' see that's what really makes me sick, so called experts spouting crap like this , it's a method that quite frankly saves some parents sanity!

I go back to the lying babies on their backs method which was spouted by so called experts as 'totally wrong'

So called experts are never totally right or totally wrong! I think u are talking nonsense and as a patent that's fine but as a so called expert that's unforgivable.

I do not see how causing obvious distress to a helpless individual can be acceptable just on the basis that it works to achieve your short term ends, TheBody.

Clytaemnestra - laissez-faire worked for my lot, if a more structured approach works for you then that is fine.

What I am really trying to get at is that it actually doesnt matter that much. You dont need to worry that having no fixed bedtime routine at the age of 2.6 means that your child is condemned to becoming a crack dealer. Equally, having strict bedtimes doesnt mean that they wont!

If what a parent is doing now isnt working and means lots of crying and screaming (including for the parent) then change what is being done. Laissez-faire is also an option. There arent only two options; controlled crying or parent staying in the bedroom and comforting the child to sleep. Cuddling the child downstairs can also be an option.

Making it work in the moment is what matters.

Sorry yuleing, did i misunderstand the following:
Of course my meagre 14 month experience as a mother leaves me at a disadvantage to someone with all the experience like yourself. Well done you. Have a nice day.

If i did then i apologies, becasue i sincerly thought that you were being sarcastic. I have obviously misjudged your intentions, for which i heartily apologise.

You will also note that i went on to say that just becasue soemone has older children, does not mean that you will agree with them, and it doesn't make them right. But neither does it make you right.

we do what we do, and i dont think that we should judge (for wihich read - condemn) other mothers who are just trying to do what is the best for their children.

I am with Clytem on this one. If i bought DS out of his room he would think that all his christmasses had come at once, and there would be bugger all chance of settling him down! But then i suppose i am one fo the lucky ones, int hat my DS is easy to settle in his own room, in the dark with no stimulation. But i also learnt when he was young that the endless walking up and down, singing, jiggling, rocking etc just wound him up more and more and more, and what he needed was to be in his cot to wind down. This involved crying. It broke my bloody heart, but he would be asleep within 10 minutes. Or i could walk for hours and he would still be awake. I dont think its the easy option, but sometimes it is the ONLY option for that family.

"Of course my meagre 14 month experience as a mother leaves me at a disadvantage to someone with all the experience like yourself. Well done you. Have a nice day."

I was responding to a very rude post made towards me and making it clear that I did not wish to engage with that person anymore or have a big bunfight with them about their experience or my lack of it. They were rude, I was a little sarcastic back to them - shoot me.

I don't want to argue with you Lotus, thank you for your apology.

very true dandylions

cc isnt for all parents but it does work - depends if you as a parents can stand to hear your child cry for a while

ive always said to parents to time it with a watch - screaming/crying sounds a lot longer when you dont

one mum was amazed when i asked her how long she thought her child was crying and she said felt like an hour but actually only screamed for 15mins, then down to 12, then 8, then 5 then nothing-so in 5 nights i had got her toddler to sleep 7-7

cc doesnt mean leaving them to scream for hours on end alone - but going in to check they are ok, and soothing them till they learn to re settle theirselves

I have no doubt that CC works as a method of teaching children to go to bed and go to sleep.

What worried me as a parent was the question "what would it be teaching them about their relationship with me?". I believe the answer to that question was "it will teach them that I will not be there to help them in their distress - that they cannot rely on me". I believed that this was not ultimately a good thing either for them or for me. I did have one 'nightmare' child re. sleeping, followed by a dream child who asked to go to bed when she was tired, followed by another more difficult one. I did spend a few years bed hopping and, with the eldest, watching cartoons at 3am - until I discovered the trick with dc1 was not to allow any napping after about 3pm as this gave them a second wind for the evening.

they were all different, needing different strategies, but the one constant was that they were never left in distress to cry. I have seen nothing since to convince me that CC is generally a good thing for children, though I admit that there are situations in which it might be the least worst solution for stressed parents.