To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

So, lequeen after your dd had been sick and you cleaned up and aid goodnight, did she just turn over and go to sleep? I find it really hard to accept that a small child cries themselves to the point of vomiting, in a sly manipulative way, and then just decides that it's not working, so they give up - i know your dds are very intelligent, but those are the actions of an evil genius!

As I said earlier, there is no way we could do cc/cio with our dcs (although it is not something i could do anyway) and despite having some fairly heinous sleep experiences, we all manage to get enough sleep (in fact ds is having a lovely sleep in my arms at the moment!)

"I find the ascribing of adult emotion (controlling, manipulation, outraged screaming etc) to a 2 - 3 year old a bit odd."

I totally agree Gnome.

Thank you so much for all the replies.

To update, the night I posted was a total nightmare. dh and I agreed that we would go in to him and say our night-time phrase (yes, I have read No Cry Sleep Solution, though long ago) and then leave him and repeat every 5 minutes. He cried for 3 solid hours - I felt dreadful but it did get to the point where I thought, "we've come this far, would actually be cruel to stop it now but then try the same tomorrow." , I'm not even sure of my own logic there but that is what we did...

Then last night he slept from 7 - 3.30am, cried for 45 mins during which I went in every 5 minutes and did the boring thing and then he slept til 6.30ish. Very happy with that, but we'll have to see what happens tonight.

I know this is an emotive subject and, no offence at all to all helpful ccers on here who've given me advice, I really really wish it hadn't come to this, but it has. I co-slept with ds1 until he was exactly two at which point he was so excited to have his own big boy bed (bought in preparation for ds2's arrival) that he transferred to that and began sleeping 12 hours a night with no fuss. Ds2 is just a very different child.

I suppose people are right that he is playing me but in many ways, I really don't mind. He is still tiny and it's not his fault I've co-slept and bf for the last 2.5 years and that is all he's ever known - no wonder he's complaining! However, I can't continue like it - I sat in ds1's swimming lesson in tears on Saturday - that isn't normal is it? I even refused to read ds2 a story during the lesson. This is what convinced me that I am doing it for his benefit as well as mine - I will be a more lively and fun mother if I get some sleep.

I know my Op was on a night when he wouldn't actually go to bed in the first place, but that was actually unusual - he has been going to bed at 7 with me leaving him awake but sleepy for ages so it's not about me gaining an evening _ I've had that for ages. someone suggested leaving him down later but that would not work for me at all. I plan lessons and mark most evenings so can't have dc down and, as I said, he normally goes to bed fine - it's the staying there that's been the problem.

Finally, I'm sure that whole thing isn't upsetting him too much. I do go in every 5 mins so he knows he's not abandoned and clearly staying in the room was upsetting him more and prolonging it. In the mornings, he now wakes and climbs in with ds1 and they play together for a bit until we come in he seems to be able to sense the difference between 3am and 6am somehow! This shows he is gaining independence and not waking up traumatised I think.

Thanks again for all the helpful advice.

OP - I am in the camp that when it gets to bed time, it's the end of child time for me - they are tired, I have had enough, they need to go to bed and go to sleep.

At the age you're talking about, there is definitely an element of 'how do I get my own way'. I see the difference between when DH is not yet home from work and I put both boys (2 and 4.9 yrs) to bed; they know what I will and won't put up with, and settle calmly and quickly. DH is a soft touch, and gives in more readily to the demands for 'just one more story', 'just 5 mins more snuggling'. So it definitely takes him longer.

I have found a good bridge between them not wanting to be in the room by themselves and me not being prepared to lay down with them them til they fall asleep is to play a CD quietly. We do audio stories or there's a particularly irritating musical In the Night Garden one. Works well.

DD3 was like this and what I did was bore her and bf her. She still bfed during the day at that age. I never introduced toys and stories, just bfed her in her own bed. She never got out of bed, but just lay there crying and crying and crying and crying and crying..... We got her a full size bed with a bedrail for safety and I used to climb in beside her and bf.

She finally slept through the night consistently at around 2.8. I have no idea what made her sleep through the night in the end. I always got up to see to her as she could scream herself blue in the face for hours right from the first day of her life. Maybe she just grew out of it?

I could never countenance the idea of cc, and it was a big bone of contention between exH and me, as he was brought up by exMIL who boasted of never once getting up in the night for any of her 7 children and he therefore thought that was how to deal with crying babies.

Can i ask what you suggest bummbley for mums with 3 small dc who all require cuddling to sleep when you're the only adult in the house?

Fwiw I used Elizabeth Pantone no cry sleep, doesn't do what it says on the tin as they do still cry at times mainly when I was crawling out in my hands and knees trying not to wake them never managed cc as was always so tired that by 5am when they were still going for it I could take no more. Eldest dd is awful sleeper but what I've found is the more tired she is the harder it is for her to fall asleep and stay asleep so sometimes when her night waking get bad a couple of 6.30 bedtimes are in order and we always have to be very firm with her.

Now that my 2 eldest are at school I can't tell you how important it s to get a reasonable bedtime and good sleeping sorted out. Dcs cousin still co sleeps at 8still has to be cuddled to sleep, parents relationship has not gone too well and she can't get up for school most mornings and is always sickly and finds it hard to concentrate.

I'm not one for CC,but I don't think it's fair to attack others who use it. What works for some, doesn't work for others and we all have our own levels of what we can and can't take.

lecce I do symphathise, I had 2 very different DC too. Dd1 slept from her 11 oclock feed until about 5.30/6 from 3 months DD2 was very different and I co slept with her until she was about 2. I then started to feel like you-getting no sleep because of wriggling etc.

After a few weeks of trying her in her own room, of getting up throughout the night, I was knacked. We brought DD's bed into our room and it meant sleep all round from the first night. She slept because she knew we were there, Dh and I slept too without the wriggling.

By the way, she only stayed in our room for about 6 months. We then moved her in with DD1 with no problems at all. I think every child is different and you know your DC. If she isn't ready to leave your room without lots of upset and tears all round, maybe try her bed in your room.

DD2 is now 18 and is a fantastic sleeper. She could sleep on a washing line DD1 on the other hand is a whole different story.

LeQueen - I dont think that a 2-3 year old is capable of adult levels of manipulation.

As children start school I agree that sufficient sleep is important however that routine can be established quite quickly. You really dont need an 18 month run up at it.

There isnt one answer to settling small children to sleep however as they get older most children do get the idea of going to bed on their own.

I have been following this thread with interest and lots of sympathy for anyone who doesn't get enough sleep. I don't post much and limit myself to non controversial areas so I am taking a deep breath before adding my tuppence worth to this thread.

My childcare guru,in the early 90s, was Penelope Leach. I didn't hear of CC until my DS2 was born in 1999 and it was nver something I would have felt comfortable with.

I worked full time when my children were small and can still remember the longing for sleep.

I don't condemn anyone for doing what works but I was firmly in the anything for a quiet life camp. We did co sleeping with DS1 until he was 3.I can say hand on heart he was never left to cry. We took the view that crying was a form of communication and also that an upset child (like an upset adult)is far less likely to settle easily .

I think we also felt that the early years would soon be over so not having "time to ourselves" in the evenings would be short lived.

DS1is 19 now and turned out fine. He also had a dummy because he liked the comfort but now has marvellous teeth without need of orthodontics.

DS2 on the other hand didn't like/need co sleeping. He used to lie in his cot awake and drift off to sleep smiling.

I didn't feel manipulated by my children and viewed them as small people with the same rights as larger people. I think this is probably an old fashioned view now but I hope it comes back into vogue before I become an MIL.

I am gng to go crazy. Full moon maybe. Before I do LeQueen cautionary tales are v sensible and I agree a pandering approach may lead to sleep probs in adulthood. Now for the crazy part.

FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!!!! What is WRONG with people?? OP is literally on her last legs and she is being plied with guilt trips and emotional blackmail. Not by the toddler oh no, but by the one second of crying is torture brigade. GET OVER yourselves. A bit of crying has to be better than exhaustion related behavioural, emotional and physical probs for mum and child.

Whether it is or isn't she shouldn't be made to feel bad when she is at her wits end. She is clearly in need and it's all judged judgey judgey bumble I'm looking at you! This holier than thou I'm a better mother than you bec I never let my child cry when not having been in OPs position REALLYpisses me off.

End of rant

LeQueen - are those families supposed to represent what happens if you don't use CC? Not using CC does not automatically equal no bedtime/cosleeping or settling until the age of 8/10/allowing your children to fall asleep wherever and whenever. I think it's a bit ridiculous to pick extreme examples tbh. I'm sure we could come up with some horror stories of people using CC or CIO and their children suffocating/choking on their own vomit etc.

On another note, I think parents having a set bedtime in their heads causes a lot of problems. There then becomes this fixation with 'they should be asleep by now' when actually, how many of you fall asleep at a set time every night? Our 'bedtime' has come about because this is around the usual time that the boys are tired and ready to go to bed. We have them in their jammies with their teeth brushed by 8 and they may go straight to bed for stories and lights out then or it may be a half hour or so before they look tired enough for us to take them up. I would rather they spent 30 mins down here playing quietly while I mumsnet tidy up than try persuading an untired boy to lie down and go to sleep. 8/8.30 seems to be quite late by some people's standards too. Perhaps one of the reasons people are having to spend an hour and a half/2 hours putting their children to sleep is because they are trying to put them down at 7when they actually aren't really tired until 8.30. We definitely noticed DS2 being tired earlier once he dropped his nap too. If he ever ends up falling asleep during the day now eg. On a long car journey then he is not tired at the usual time at all.

Agree with you emdela Dc are all different, if I'd tried to co sleep with DD1 she would have kicked up a huge fuss, she wanted to sleep in her own cot. DD2 was very different and hated being left on her own.

Just as we take into account adults' differing wants/preferences, I think toddlers deserve the same. Why should they all be treated as if they have exactly the same wants/needs?

LeQueen are we related? My sil has 8&10 yr old dcs who are exactly the same. Any waking results in them trotting in to sleep in her single bed. They are all zombies with appalling tempers every single day.

The family dynamic is terrible, it's not clear who's in charge, although I think this stems from much deeper issues than the sleeping.

I'm perplexed by the cc/cio v go with the flow bunfight above. Each to their own, different things work with different children & you'll never know how you would cope with someone else's kid(s).

As for it being inappropriate to recommend CIO/CC to other people, it works for some, whatever you think & the OP asked for advice. She is entitled to decide for herself whether or not to try it. Whipping up hysteria re child abuse & the conjecture of the dreadful effects of either approach is just silly.

OP kep trying until you get something that works. Ultimately you ALL deserve a decent night's sleep & Dc deserve a happier mum so whatever you do, remember you're not being selfish.

Um, where have I judged the OP bringmesunshine? The only person I have ranted at and judged used CIO and left her child to cry unattended for hours. The OP is not using that approach.

Totally agree Gaviscon.

Op read this thread then choose what is right for YOU and your DS. And don't feel guilty about it.

Do people still not know that there is a difference between CC and CIO? By recommending CIO you are recommending that someone ignores their child for possibly hours on end, not go in to them at all and not check on them/reassure them in any way. How on earth can anyone think that is acceptable? Seriously? Would any of you lock your child in their room for hours during the day without checking on them?

No Bumble I didn't know there was a difference, I thought CIO was the same kind of thing as CC.

I have never looked into CC or CIO so didn't realise there was a difference. I don't believe anyone would surely advocate leaving a baby for hours on end would they?

bringmesunshine thank you very much for your understanding .

It's funny because a lot of the anti-crying (not that anyone's pro-crying!) comments could well have been made by me not so long ago. Then I found myself in this situation, with this child feeling like I do. I wish so much I could just see it out because I know he would have grown out of it by himself eventually anyway, but I just can't.

I'm pretty much ok in the week because I have to get to work but I can't go on anymore dragging myself around at the weekends feeling drained and horribly guilty because I'm not really enjoying my children.

I co-slept with both dc because I wanted to avoid this but it hasn't worked out like that for us. I must admit I do feel guilty reading about people who have managed to do things a gentler way (though I realise people haven't tried to make me feel that way) but I really can't do it bit-by-bit as it does seem to enrage him more and, for example, when I tried to stop bf but keep co-sleeping it was near enough impossible in the early hours and I gave in.

Anyway, he's been asleep since 7ish, so good so far tonight...

Lecce - how about extending it to every ten minutes - 5 seems excessive? I think i sat outside the door for up to 15 mins/20 mins and then went in if i felt it was really needed. From there i was able to extend it to half an hour and he would calm himself down. The screaming only went on for the first night really. He would throw his toys out of the cot. Don't engage in the Toy palava. I was surprised how he got into a routine over about 3 nights.

With DD i had to do nothing, she was sleeping through from 4 weeks!! Sadly now she's 9 she seems to want constant trips to the loo and chats on the stairs when she's supposed to be in bed

lecce, I had the same issue with DS2 when we were stopping feeding to sleep. When I tried to put him down he just wouldn't settle without it whereas he would settle for DH with just a sip of water and wouldn't ask for milk. It only took a week or so of DH putting him down before I could do it too without him asking.

Have you tried music with him? We had a selection of songs on the iPod that we used for putting DS2 to sleep when he was younger. They weren't all sleepy songs either just anything that was a bit 'droney' iykwim. We'd put it on at lights out and then he'd fall asleep with it in the background while he was feeding or if DH was rocking him or whatever. It was just another sleep association thing that we found helped with settling him for a daytime nap. The music also helped to drown out noise around the house (we were getting work done at the time). Maybe introducing something like that while you lie with him for a little while could help settle him and also be a kind of 'sleep cue' or something for him that he associates with being comfortable and relaxed so that even if you're not there he may still have that feeling? It could also make it easier or you to sneak out when he does fall asleep! :) Just a thought!

Quicklookbusy, unfortunately some people do. There were a few earlier in the thread.