To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

Just to be contrary, is all this truly necessary? My three all stayed downstairs with us. Once they reached a point where they were tired then we did what we called 'pin down' whereby we would cuddle the child until they fell asleep. This would mean cuddling through the naughty arm phase of settling down to sleep - this is the point where the child is asleep except for one arm which has a life of it's own.

Once the child was asleep they were taken up to their own bed. If they came down then there would be a quick cuddle then straight back to bed. If they came into our bed then that wasnt a problem. Though at some point in the night they would be taken back to their own bed.

One of our rules was that once we had decided to settle the child for sleeping then interaction with the child stopped. They were cuddled but not talked to or played with.

This did mean that our DCs didnt have early nights but on the whole we found this better than lots of crying and screaming.

Of course the rules changed when they started school at the age of 4.

That sounds fine to me gnome! :)

Bumbley - he is absolutely knackered but he just fights and fights it. He stays downstairs (me and DP dont mind this tbh) until he shows signs of being tired and then I take him up but he just wont bloody go to sleep.

Thanks bumbley!

Gribble - keep him downstairs until he goes to sleep then. It really does make for a lot less fuss and performance. Just because a child doesnt have a bedtime routine at 2 1/2 doesnt mean they wont have one at 8.

My DD (2.3) will have nothing to do with going to sleep if we're in the room. She perks right up, stands up in her cot and starts asking "What you doing?". If you ignore her then she gets distressed and tries to get my attention. The idea that she would lie down and have her head stroked until she drifted off to dreamland is a total fantasy in our case. We have tried it and been in there for HOURS. CC took us 40 minutes for 3 nights. Personally I think that CC was considerably kinder as she didn't find it confusing and full of mixed messages about whether she should be asleep or interacting with a parent or was being ignored by a parent even though they're right there.

When she was 3months old and refusing to sleep I stayed with her and stroked her head and it was lovely. When sleep went out the window again as a toddler I had to find another method.

Well bumblymummy you are going to hate me!

I wholeheartedly recommend cc/CIO method. It was taking hours to get my DS to go to sleep. Everytime I put him in the cot he would cry, if I left the room he would cry. He wouldn't settle for anybody but me and it was making everybody unhappy - including my DS as he was knackered and wanted to go to sleep (just on me!).

Within 4 nights we saw improvement, within a week I was feeding him, singing a nursery rhyme, putting him in the cot smiling up at me and turn off the light and he was asleep.

Best parenting decision I ever made, the amount of crying was actually less that picking him up and putting him down all the time. No neglect, no abuse, no developmental delay. Yes I listened to him cry but he is a much much much happier baby at bedtime and it was the best thing for him.

To the OP I think you need to be tougher (although I do know how hard it is remember you have his best interests in mind). If you have made the decision to do it you have to do it - no half measure i.e chatting, toys etc. Do it for a week, be consistent, it will help - stick with it.

Gnome - we used to do that and it was fine, but for the last year or so he just wont go to sleep down here anymore. We have a 4 month old now so even less chance of him doing it. I honestly wouldnt mind if he did settle down here with us, but there is too much 'excitement' for him, so I take him up to try and bore him into sleep, which doesnt fookin work either.

So have resigned myself to the fact that this is either my life for the next couple of years, or need to try something drastic. Bugger.

What is CC/CIO? They are two different things.

CC - going in at regular intervals.
CIO - leaving them to cry until they stop.

Gribble, it might not be that long! They change so quickly. Perhaps right now he's taking a while to settle, next week he may not. Have you tried the 'explaining' that someone suggested earlier?

First night I did cc from then onwards I would go in after 10 mins if not settled. Didn't need to go in at all 4th night onwards as didn't cry for 10mins

No cry sleep solution is good - you can get it from amazon.

The research on the determental effect on child being left to cry is often done with children that have forms of neglect and left to cry over a period of time -many nights , many weeks - not two nights.

The research also seems to be done with babies not toddlers .

and yes DS is 'bright' and has suffered no long term damage for being left to cry it out over 9 years ago . - things may have been worse if I let the 'night time not settling' to carry on and not take such 'drastic' action to stop it.

Sorry that should have been CIO first night

Are you still BFing? I was in a similar situation with DS2, who was approaching two. I was up twice a night BFing and exhausted- and god only knows how you're coping with a full time job, as I was just wandering around the toddler groups & supermarket in a comatose state . For me, knocking BFing on the head day and night certainly helped. Also, enlisting my DM to go in with beakers of water helped.

Sounds like yours is less breast obsessed and more playing for your company generally. Could he be scared of the dark? If so, does he have a dim night light? Would also agree that lots of outdoor exercise might be a good strategy. Wear him out totally, and make sure he eats a good dinner. Hard when it's cold outside, but swimming or/and a soft play might do it. Other than that, I guess you could try roping in a close family member and ask them to sleep train him for you. Meanwhile, you get a couple of nights of sleep. It's hard but sometimes when you can't see the wood for the trees, it helps to enlist the help of a trusted family member who is more refreshed and less emotionally involved.

Hope this helps, and it will get better. My insomniac DS is now by far the better of my two DCs and the only one who sleeps in late.

Op- how are things now?
Somewhere up the thread someone mentioned Feng Shui... I always think it must be bollocks. BUT...we rearranged the bedroom and ds2 has just started sleeping through in his bed. He's 2.5 and never really wakes up and annoys me. He leaves his bed and comes into mine usually in a v sleepy state.
Room doesn't look as good as before but it seems cosier and bed is far away from window.
Have also cleared out a load of toys. Quiet room, quiet mind.?

When I heard him stirring recently i put Mozart on quietly on CD player. Seems to calm him and keep him company. (But failed to do this last night and he came into bed. Didn't notice til morning though!)

Hope things are improving a bit and that you enjoy rest of half term.

I like LeQueen's method ' make it dull as shit'

I think LeQueen is right. Parenting is basically what you can bear and you have reached your limit, most people reach theirs sooner.

We pandered to our PFB bedtime took hours as DH and I would lie with her, sit next to her etc. It lasted until she was one and I just couldn't take any more. Around this time I went to stay with a friend (who had an older child and one my DD's age) in Paris without DH. Her and I went out for dinner leaving her DH to babysit, I left him with our complicated instructions which he totally ignored (a French guy after a long day at work with two small DDs himself funnily enough wasn't prepared to follow our "routine" ). He reported that she cried for abit then went to sleep. Bedtimes were really easy after that...

Lequeen - 'his own way' might simply mean reassurance and comfort because he is upset/scared/whatever. There is nothing wrong with that.

I'm not sure if anyone's recommended this already (apologies if they have) but there's a magnificent book to help you with CC by Angela Henderson, details at www.babysleepguide.co.uk/author.html
It was suggested by my HV (actually my local authority gives out copies of the book they like it so much). I read it, did exactly what they said and my DD got in within an hour. The only time she doesn't sleep through is when she's poorly. Happy baby, happy mum and no one is knackered.
It's about 100 pages long so you'll be able to read it in an evening, I really don't think you'll regret it.
Hoping that helps.

Just what the world needs...another 'sleep training' book.

bumbley I am with you for a small baby - breast feeding co sleeping needs a parent close yes I agree of course. But this child is older and his poor mother is on her last legs its not ideal but she can't go on like she is and there really isn't any other option.

Just looked at slowginny's link - Angela Henderson sums it up on her website

''Sleep deprivation can endanger your health and your family relationships''

oh so true ..