To ask you all what the fuck I am supposed to do now with non-sleeping 2yr old

[lecce]

About two weeks ago I posted here about the possibility of leaving my 2.6yr old to cry it out because I can't stand him fussing, bfing and lying bang on top of me all night anymore. I work f/t, on my last legs etc etc.

People were mainly against the idea (as was I, hence the post) but in fact, when I sort of tried it 1 week ago, after 10/15 mins of crying, ds started asking for a toy, I went in and gave it, he snuggled back down. I was ecstatic - had expected hours of hysterical crying.

The first three nights, he did this several times but with the spaces between the wakings extending every night. At no point did he even ask for bf, never mind get one. Great, I thought, we're getting there. The 4th night he slept from 7-4.30 am and then again from 4.40-6am. He has never slept more than 6 hours at a time before and usually only lasts 2/3 so I was so happy.

That was the end of our short-lived success. Since that night, his wakings are more frequent and his crying more fervent. His requests for toys have become ridiculous and he is asking for them just to finds ways to stop me from leaving. However many he has, he asks for more and cries when I try to leave the room - earlier in the week I was leaving with him awake and sleepy with no problems. He is waking every 2 hours and I am spending up to an hour in his room each time. The crying is so loud that I am amazed ds1, in the same room, hasn't woken.

I just don't know what to do. I do all the night-time stuff as dh has MS. In fact, he is well now and has offered to help but he's shit at it and last night got in bed with ds which, though it did give me some respite, is not really a step in the right direction.

Someone on here suggested a role-play thingy which we have done tonight. I also got him to choose a set of bedtime snugglies, showing him that he has the same amount and type as ds1 as he looks up to him. When I tried to put him to bed about 45 mins ago he started asking for a toy dino (only ones we have are hard). He's only doing it as a delay tactic and I want to dsicourage him from asking for random stuff all night so I said no, you've chosen your bedtime toys, here they are etc.

Since then he has been crying hysterically and shouting that he wants a dino. I have been in a couple of times (dh out) and he just gets louder when I go in. I feel so angry with him now . I know that's a terrible thing to say and I don't mean I feel like hurting him but I'm just so incredibly pissed off with this situation.

It's half-term (am a teacher) but I'm just going to feel absolutely shattered all week and then have to go back to work - still shattered. I've had enough. I just keep thinking that the best years of my life - with toddlers/young dc (love this age) are passing me by and I'm not enjoying them at all because I'm so tired all the time. I've been in a foul mood all weekend, snappy etc. We've done ok stuff but no craft etc I don't know, I just feel it's not good enough and all because I can't sort this sleeping business.

I'm sorry for writing so much, just needed to vent, though if anyone has a magic answer - great.

Thanks for reading.

bumbleymummy - stop being so precious!
What worked for you might not work for others - give yourself a pat on the back , you are clearly a Parenting specialist and so rigid you can't accept other techniques work.

My son is 11, i did CC because nothing worked. My HV suggested it and after a couple of days bedtimes went smoothly, with a story and a drink and were stressfree and pleasant.

God forbid, the OP, who is a teacher and works fulltime, may need a bit of a break, eh?

just to say, avantia, i agree with bumbleymummy.

Thats fine Hazel - put very politely

sorry , hazey

I sympathise. my eldest of 3 was(and still is, but he's 23 now so not my problem) sleeper. Like you I was at my wits end and when he was 6 months old I was pg again and terrified at the thought of him like that and a baby as well. The best advice I ever got from a district nurse was to go to his room when he was crying, not to make a fuss, make sure he isn't obviously distressed for a valid reason, stand at the door and say in a very boring way," lie down, go to sleep" over and over maybe five or six times. Then go away even though he is crying. It is one of the hardest things to do I know but it is worth it in the long run. Eventually, it took a couple of weeks, but it got less and less and he did realise when he wasn't getting any attention that it was easier just to go to sleep. And I wouldn't give toys unless it's a teddy or something that he takes to bed anyway.
Hope this helps and I know it does get better but equally I know you can't see it at the moment. Best of luck.

I completely disagree with bumblymummy, how could you basically accuse someone of neglecting their children?
What a nasty thing to say
ImHO your method seems a bit odd to me, if your child can only fall asleep if you are lying with him, "sleep breathing"
With CC they learn to self settle so if the child wakes up in the night they can settle themselves to sleep, rather than needing you, a dark room and sleep breathing
It's all well and good having an opinion and offering advice but when you turn it into a personal attack because you think you are the only person who knows how to parent, people are going to get pissed off.
Anyone trying to get their child to sleep all night and still be functional enough to go to work will know they use whatever method works.

"and anecdotes are proof now are they?"

Sorry, I must have missed the bit when you were providing hard and fast evidence rather than your own anecdotes about what worked for you and your family.

Hi, just wanted to say have you read the Millpond book? 'Teach your child to sleep'. I have been trying over the last 2 weeks with DS 2.8, and there are lots of techniques to try, plus advice on how long it might take which is useful. He co slept with us, on me (no bf though), and the only way to get him to sleep in his own bed was for me to lay on it with him while he lolled and squirmed all over the place, used to take hours. I've tried gradual retreat together with the 'door-shutting' method and it has been quite a kind way to do it. Plus a strict (but affectionate) pre-sleep routine, and minimal interaction once it's time to sleep. I would recommend it - even though DS is not sleeping through yet, it has made a huge difference to my quality of life already.

Sideburns - so you think it is precious if you don't leave your children to cry for hours by themselves? . I havenot said that our method would work for everyone or that CC doesn't work- plenty of people have used it and got the 'result' that they were looking for. I am simply offering an alternative to all the 'you must be firm', 'just ignore him', 'don't give in' posts. We all need a break at the end of the day but some of us don't ignore our children to get one.

I dontlikebaking - I think it's an incredibly nasty thing to just leave your child in its room crying for you for hours on end. DS can go back to sleep by himself when he wakes unless he actually needs us - bad dream/thirsty and if he cries for us we go to him. Our method may seem strange to you but it works for us and is quick and painless for everyone. No running in and out of bedrooms every few minutes and listening to a distressed child. That is beyond 'odd' afaiac.

I haven't attacked anyone for using CC even though I very strongly disagree with it. I attacked a poster who said that she ignored her child for hours on end. Very different things IMO. I would attack anyone who said that they did that day or night. For some reason some people (though thankfully few!) see it as acceptable at night. I would love to get some time to myself during the day. Should I just lock my 2 year old in his room and let him cry so I can read my book and catch up on Downton Abbey? Maybe I should start an AIBU on that?

Thanks Hazey btw. :)

bumblymummy- different methods work for different people (both parents and children) and you don't seem to be acknowledging that. I think everyone here is trying to do the best for their child and to accuse parents of being nasty is just not on. you imply that parents are doing this for their own selfish reasons

As I said before we tried the method you use and it didn't work - and actually made matters worse; You have a son who can go back to sleep on his own - many of us don't/didn't and need to help them to learn this skill.

I have twins and learnt fairly early on that both of them can find someone "settling" them more stimulating than soothing. So when it came to needing to get a full night's sleep we went with CIO rather than CC. It wasn't an easy option by-the-way, and did not actually involve ignoring. We planned it out over a holiday period and took it in turns to stay up/get up and listen to them cry (which is indeed as horrible as it sounds) to make sure they weren't crying because they needed changing/were ill etc. As it happened it only took a few nights, though we were prepared for up to 10. Overall they cried less in the month after we started (including the CIO nights) and slept more than they had in the month before when we had been going in to them. And DH and I got a lot more sleep making us less irritable and generally nicer, more capable people. I have no qualms recommending it if it suits a family.

Mine were a lot younger than the OP's and I think dealing with a toddler is quite different. But I wouldn't completely discount just leaving him if you know he's safe and well. It is a fairly well recommended approach for temper tantrums, so the crying/not visibly responding in and of itself isn't universally regarded as something to avoid at all costs.

OP you say it is clear most of it is delaying tactics and I wonder how you deal with that sort of behaviour when it's not bedtime? Because it may be your DS is going to take more time because he's not used to hard boundaries when told it's going to be like this. I only say this because it sounded as though maybe your DH gives in to him when you've said no? A lot to read into your posts, it just seemed like a possible scenario. If there is that sort of regular inconsistency I would have thought any sort of CIO but especially CC would be less likely to work with a toddler.

I feel for you OP - lack of sleep is torture. Hope you get a nap and find a way to get good sleep for everyone through the night.

"You have a son who can go back to sleep on his own - many of us don't/didn't and need to help them to learn this skill."

You sound as if you are saying that my son was somehow 'easy' to get to sleep and that this wouldnt work for other 'harder' children. My children were not 'easy' but we didn't want to use CC so we didn't. It isn't like it is the ONLY way to do things which some people do seem to think based on posts on this thread. I find it strange that Some people are happy to go weeks going in every few minutes to shhh or tell a crying child to go to sleep but yet think lying beside them for a few minutes until they settle is strange and overly time consuming.

Unfortunately we can't just 'switch off' our children at night and make them stop needing/wanting us. I think it is a bit unfair to expect to be able to do so.

Suchprospects - "did not actually involve ignoring." what exactly do you call listening to your children crying without doing anything?

Bummblymummy - every parent parents differently - i think you will have to get used to that - I accept that people will not agree with what I did but that does not make me a lazy parent or choose the easy option . My DS (like so many on this thread including yours ) come from a loving home where there is no form of neglect or abuse - two nights of crying it out worked for us without any long term effects.

When you are at the end of your tether and have to get up at 6am for work and have nightly sleep problems with a child I think you must accept that you will try anything .

Hard it may be for you to accept that so in turn you come over with personal attacks.

We are here to help the OP - we all give our experiences so Op can make an informed choice .

Lets not dissect my parenting of 9 years ago lets move forward and help the OP constructively .

I didn't say CC was the ONLY way. What i said was that your way is not the ONLY way and that your attitude implied it was. If your DS wasn't able to get back to sleep (after the initial bedtime) by himself - would you have to go to him and sleep next to him throughout the night?
And as I said earlier we tried your method and it resulted in either me or DP sleeping next to DS for pretty much all the night - so wasn't really working by my reckoning.
No-one is trying to switch off their child. My child needs to sleep during the night and to do this without being attached (physically) to me - he may think he needs me and he wants me but then again I don't always do what he wants during the day if i think it is bad for him (for example he would like to be attached to my boob 24-7 - I find this a little inconvenient so don't do it- am I ignoring him??)

OP- I would try just walking in giving him Dino and saying something like here is Dino and now its sleep time and then leaving. He has to learn that he won't get the kind of attention he wants from you/DP by kicking up a fuss.

Yes, I am aware that people parent differently - there are plenty of examples on this thread. I don't agree with quite a few approaches but yours is the first one that I actually said anything directly about simply because it is such a shocking thing to do! The fact that others have also admitted to using CIO just makes me incredibly sad. I'm not sure why you think that you are the only person who has been completely deprived of sleep. I think you should accept that some people have been just as tired, just as stressed, just as at the end of their tether with children who are just as difficult or perhaps even more difficult to settle but still wouldn't even contemplate leaving their child to scream for hours. Even CC (which I dislike) at the very least involves some interaction/reassurance for the child.

I'm very tempted to start that AIBU thread just to gauge how acceptable anyone would find it to leave a child/children to scream in their room for hours during the day. I'm pretty sure that SS would be called if a neighbour heard such a thing. I'm not sure why things are suddenly considered more acceptable at night...

Tom - I haven't said mine was the ONLY way either.( I think I have actually said this a few times now) I have got the impression that some people think that CC is the only way to get a child to 'teach/train' a child to sleep though. Again, I didn't say that you specifically had said that. it's just the impression I get from some of the posts.

DS used to co-sleep with us and in the beginning, when we started to transition him into his room, it did take a while for him to settle. We would lie there for as long as it would take for him to drift off - the same way as someone who is doing CC will go in and out of the room for as long as it takes for their child to go to sleep. It does require the same level of commitment but you get the results (an asleep child) without the crying and without the effort of running up and down the stairs a million times!

Everybodys circumstances are different different personalties different social & economic pressures , hence different parenting - it is not black and white - yes you are shocked but don't judge me as a parent when I have given you a snap shot of a very stressful time for me.

I think it's when the lying or sitting, or whatever, in there with them means they take longer to go to sleep than not being in there with them (particularly if they are distressed because they are so tired) or when being in there with them means you aren't getting enough sleep to function properly that you might want to consider CC or CIO (or some other method).

Different children and different adults have different approaches. There's no evidence that any of these methods leads to better attached, happier or better sleeping children than any of the others. Different parents choose different approaches for different reasons, mainly, I think, related to their and their children's temperaments and their environments - which vary.

bumbleymummy And what would your suggestion have been for someone like me, who found that their DD wouldn't sleep no matter how much lying down, cuddling, snuggling and soothing they did?

The only thing that worked for us was CIO. CC didn't work - DD just went berserk every time she left the room, lying with her didn't work - an upset mum walking out of the room after two hours of being screamed at by an angry child found that her DD stopped crying fairly soon afterwards. And yes, it went against every instinct I had, but she doesn't love me any less, and I don't love her any less.

And she sleeps for 13 hours at a time, perhaps that's because I'm such a horrible mother that it means she has to spend less than half a day in my company.

Actually there is some evidence that suggests that long periods of crying are damaging due the impact of stress hormones on things like brain development.

Flisspaps, some children do need less interaction than others. Plenty of babies don't like being cuddled to sleep etc. I'm not going to say what you 'should' have done because when you say you tried 'everything' I'm not sure what you mean. I just know that I, personally, wouldn't leave my child to cry for me for hours which, to be fair, you didn't actually do anyway.

Well of course mini-prospects are very bright, aren't everyone's .

There is evidence that high levels of cortisol over a long period of time could have a detrimental impact on the brain. But as I have pointed out, we went with CIO because they cried when we were in there, so we cut the amount of crying they did by using a fast working, hard boundary method. Also, there is no evidence that the amount of cortisol released in CIO or CC is significant. Really, it feels horrendous at the time but compared to a few weeks of the terrible twos, or (as I recall) a teen break up, the amount of crying is small.

Im nearing trying CIO tbh with DS1 (3 yo). Have tried everything else, the only thing that works atm is to get him in our bed while I lie next to him, not talking, sometimes for 1 1/2 - 2 hours, which usually means I end up falling asleep.

This may be really obvious gribble but is he definitely tired when you take him to bed? If we try putting DS2 to bed when he's not tired it takes much longer than if we wait until he is actually yawning/rubbing his eyes. We also found that baths actually wind our children (!!!) up so we have to do them early evening or in the morning.