To be worried about my daughter ...

[ParanoidAnnie]

DD1 is 7 (class 3). She had a rocky start to school and never really seemed to bond or fit in. She is a lovely child. I know I am biased, but I have heard this from other sources I.e. family/friends. She is kind, considerate and always shows great empathy with others.

She has no friends to call her own. After lots of fighting and falling out at school with some girls who had much stronger personalities than her, she quite naturally took it upon herself to just play with boys as they were no hassle! I commended her for this mature decision.

However now they are getting older, the boys aren't interested and she is becoming increasingly withdrawn. She never gets invited to parties or sleepovers. I do try to play this down a lot. We always do something nice at weekends to compensate.

I have spoken to school in the past when a few girls were being particularly nasty. It was resolved at the time and things seemed to settle down.

She is 8 in a few weeks and has really started to notice how things are. Last night she initiated a conversation about why she wasn't 'popular'. She said she couldn't understand why she didn't have any friends at school. She was asking me what she could do? We've had girls for tea and had parties but she rarely gets invited back. So I've taken my bat and ball home a bit with the rudeness of some the mums.

I have anthr DD who is completely different and the comparison is becoming so obvious to both!

There are other things that have happened at school that I don't want to say for fear of identifying us!

I fear that she is lonely, sad and as they get older she is heading for a rough time. I just don't know what to do to help. I love her do much and just want her to be happy. So am I AIBU to be concerned or should I just leave it and let it sort itself out?

Thanks for reading thus far .....

I'd get your DD out of that school and give her a fresh start elsewhere. While she may be a square peg in THIS school it doesn't follow she can't be happy and accepted elsewhere. She sounds lovely and being bright and pretty AND nice..is sadly just the sort to be excluded by the mini 'mean girls' clique.

I was a square peg.. my primary years were hell.. made worse because my Mum was a teacher there and the bullies liked to punish me for that . Mum never knew as I kept quiet..was always quiet, but she would be horrified to this day if she knew how unhappy I was.

Then we moved and I went to a new school... and I was able to make friends. I was always a bit quirky for the popular set, but the older I got the more comfortable I was with myself and made some lovely friendships.

This CAN be resolved... but I suspect that the best option would be somewhere bigger, and with more girls in the class...

HUGE un MN hugs to you and your DD...

Oh I sympathise.My dd is a year younger and started a new school last September (as she'd been so unhappy in year one in her old school-and she hadn't made any friends -well she made two,but they left and she was lonely).She is much happier in her new school but does find the "I'm your friend/I don't like you any more" thing that girls sometimes do very hard and is playing more with the boys.Her teacher said she is very very kind in the class and she always thinks of the others before herself, and I can see she will be a lovely friend for anyone,but as hully said so well,she might do better as an adult than as a child. She is lucky in that on the whole the children in her new class are nice to each other and have been very welcoming,and her teacher is very kind and gentle. so much hinges on the other personalities they have to mix with,and the guidance of the teacher.

I dont have any experience of this or any words of wisdom, but I noticed some of you have said you have similar aged kids with the same sort of problem, and wondered if any of you are near each other and could meet up with the children?

Would you say whereabouts you are OP?

I am amazed that a 7yr old DC could be said to be giving off 'bad vibes'.

There is only one problem, as far as I see it, and that is the size of the class. Small schools can be wonderfully nurturing places with a real family atmosphere, but girls can be quite horrible with the falling out, excluding and 'you are not my friend' etc. In a bigger school it doesn't matter, they can just go and find someone else to play with-in a small school there is nowhere to go.
When I think about it, all the friendship issues I have had to sort out come from small schools. I could list a whole lot and quite a few with boys too. They have to be worked at. It appears to me that this has been ongoing for at least 2 years and no one has done anything.(probably some of these girls knew each other from before they started school). The odd number of girls doesn't help-you can immediately see what will happen if they are asked to find partners.

I would look for another school, a bigger one, and be honest about the reasons-make sure that she gets help with friendships from the start.

Hello everyone. Am totally overwhelmed by the messages of support. I never thought when I originally posted that I would get so many. Thank you all so much.

Don't want to say where we are for fear of identification. We are up North tho if that helps!

No sleep at all for me. Carrying this burden of what to do for DD that is the best thing for her. DH wants to go back to school with much more gusto this time and give them one more chance to sort it out. I think I will go with that.

There are reasons why moving schools isn't straight forward. I know there are other lovely, bigger schools in the area.

I'm sure you are right that she isn't giving off bad vibes. Im just clutching at straws as I just can't see why this is happening. It looks like perhaps she has been 'labelled' the unpopular one and will carry this with her whilst she stays at this school. Whilst pretty and clever, she doesn't have the bolshi personality that some of these girls have.

On a more positive note, she seems fine this morning. Doesn't seem to notice my angst, which is a good thing.

Don't blame the children. I have known some fabulous teachers and schools, where all sorts of "odd" children have been fully integrated. I remember my DS being in one class, and being introduced by a friends as "this is X he is very creative" each child was celebrated for their unique strengths.
Girls can be horrible, and a bigger place can help. Don't believe the old lie that you will just move the problem with you, I have seen lots of children have their lives turned around by changing schools.

Annie

My daughter is 7, year 3 and never enjoyed playing with girls, still doesn't.

She is baffled by the politics, friendships and break ups and games they play!

Our dc moved schools a year ago and, my gosh, she is thriving! She has 4 or 5 best boy friends (no girls) and is accepted by the boys and very happy. I think the school move enabled her to start afresh, armed with the knowledge that she didn't want to play with the girls so this time round she didn't waste time trying to make friends with them and getting knocked back or feeling alienated. At her old school she felt she didn't fit in and, although quite confident and self sufficient, looking back I don't think she was happy really.

She is a total tomboy (which sounds a bit different to your dd?) and is a very good and keen footballer which helps her to stay 'in' with the boys who all think she's a bit of a wow!

She needs to mix with girls her own age, make friends and build up her confidence again. I think you need to look at other avenues for her to do this such as a hobby or club or play dates with friends and their kids.

It sounds from what you say that she wasn't actually bullied, but that she found the constant falling out difficult to deal with. But she does need to learn to deal with this in some way. Even if she finds some quiet girls to make friends with, falling out in the wider group of girls will affect her. Ways of dealing with it can include standing back and trying not to get involved, but withdrawing all together isn't freally learning to deal with it.

Perhaps using scenarios from books or tv programmes may be a way to talk about - how would you deal with this?

Just to say as well - I obviously don't know your child. But I have met children who have learned how to get on well with adults, but not other children. So their family and friends think they are great, but other children don't. So the two can go alongside each other.

tbh I think it was a tiny bit naive to commend her for her decision to just play with boys, as boys were likely to not want to play with her any more as she got a bit older. Its always good to encourage them to have some girl friends as well as boy friends.

Kind of agree with DH, but would also perhaps be investigating "plan B" in case things don't improve, say, by Easter.

Try to sleep and, once you've decided on next steps, actively try to worry less, know it's v v hard but you are doing all you can and need to stay well!

Excluding people IS bullying,some academics recently published a report about it after surveys of children - will try to find it in case has useful information.

Did you say that the girls are eight years old, or that there're 8 in the class (or both?)

Hope you all have a good weekend.

I think actively excluding people is bullying. Just not choosing to play with a child is not bullying. And tbh it sounds like the OP's DD excluded herself by choosing only to play with the boys. So she decided not to have anything else to do with the other girls. Why should those girls now automatically want to play with her, when the OP's DD comes back to them just because the boys don't want to play with her anymore?

Proud, did you move her from the school due to the problems, or did you have other reasons?

DH is so against moving

P.s. she is rubbish at football... She runs away from the ball!

If you are going to tackle the school I would make a proper appointment to discuss it. It is possible that the school don't realise there is a problem, at that age quite a few DC like to just be loners and do their own thing. It is much easier when you have DCs in floods of tears and it brings it all out in the open-it doesn't seem as if it is the case with your DD.
It is just possible that no one,including the other girls, realise the problems because she played with the boys. A lot of girls do. The problem started when the boys stopped playing with her and the girls had just 'closed ranks' without her, because it was what they were used to.

She did move away from playing with them, but she wasn't left much choice. She was nipped, pushed, told not to talk as they weren't listening etc etc. She was told she was ugly. She was told she was fat (she is neither). She was hit in the head and elbowed as she walked past. So yes, she made a mature decision as she couldn't stand it any longer. I don't think she should have been in a position to make that decision though.

She doesn't want to play with them again. She doesn't go near them. It's me as her mother that thinks that this unhealthy. The boys are growing up. They don't seem to want her hanging around. They are forging friendships themselves. She seems all alone. I know the girls still have fall outs. There is one ringleader who seems to instigate everything, with another very mean one, with her own issues.

They are all a mixture of age 7 and 8. There were 8 at the school event last night. There are about 11 girls in her class. Small school. Only now class per year.

Hope that helps.

If she doesn't like football it explains why she isn't getting on with the boys.
It may simply be a case of pointing out how things have turned out. Are you happy with the school as a whole? Has it a caring ethos?

Cross posted. If she had that earlier and she doesn't want to be friends now would you not be better with a change of school?

Annie - no we moved schools because we moved areas. But it really has been wonderful for her. As I said I don't think it's down to anything more than she learned from her experience at last school and instinctively knew what to do this time around. Her sportiness has really helped, especially the football.

I'm not sure what to suggest with your dd, but I guess, like mine, it might help to find her 'thing'? Something she loves, is good at, a way to meet like minded kids?

Sorry if you've already said this, but have you had a meeting with the school? I would ask for a meeting with relevant people (form teacher, possibly year head or support teacher and maybe even the head) and discuss ways to support her and work on inclusion.

I really feel for you xx

D is 10 and my first girl,i have 3 older boys.I am shocked at the intensity and fickleness of female friendships and the nastiness they are capable of.
DD used to struggle like yours a lot of it was fuelled by the Mums of her friends being cliquey.
I thinbk the way forward is to work on dd's confidence,forgetting about friendships for now.
DD does dance,drama and has lots of friends outside school now which has in turn increased her self confidence and social skills.
She has many friends at school now but almost every week there is a fall out with one or another,speaking to other Mums it seems this is common so i tend to allow her to talk it through and make suggestions as to why it happened or what she could have done differently.
Its sad to see our dc lonely though but hopefully it will improve.

DD1 was like this. Change schools - she is thriving in a bigger school, the little village school did nothing for her confidence. She is now in secondary - we moved for her last year of primary, where there were three classes in her year. It took her a while to settle in - there were still some "mean girls", but because there were three classes, it didn't mean that she had to have anything to do with them - she was able to choose her friends.

Annie my daughter had just finished year 2...she began in year 3 at the new school this September just gone. I was worried as so many friendships are already formed by this age and my DD is a very quiet type...she is loud amongst people she knows well...but hangs back with strangers.

Lckily her new school is very good at celebrating them all and within a couple of weeks she had palled up with a much louder girl and a girl who like her is quiet....they seem to work ok together and DD has much more choice if it doesn't pan out.

Why is your DH against a move? He shouldn't worry about academics...they're SO young still that they are very pliable...and it could be very damaging in my opinion for your DD to stay where there is NO help in fitting in.

It seems that the time she spent playing with the boys has to some degree stopped her from forging any bonds with the girls....has she anything in common wth them such as Moshi Monsters? A lot of the girls in DDs class love this and it is how they bond....they talk about it and swap cards....then become friends on the online game....

Otherwise what about local Brownies? I DO think you need to look at a fresh start and the good news is that it is often easier to get in the good schools from year 3 onwards.

It ws the right thing to do...whilst my DD wasn't having any problems at her tiny school I could see that with only one other girl to be friends with there would be soon..(some girls left for a local private girls school) .her social skills would not develop...so I had to shift her to give her the best chance.

I also foresaw trouble at high school where she would not have learned the intricacies of socialising with a lot of girls...the "rules" are many and complex.

move her

move her
move her
rah rah rah

Question a prospective new school extrememly closely on pastoral care. Make sure it has bustops, buddies etc.

Those girls will never accept her. Excluding her is the glue that holds their tiny spiteful gang together. IMO.

Give her a whole new chance.

Oh, and I moved mine when they were unhappy.

It took a while, of course, it's not magic, but after a term they had made friends and flourished.

My dd was exactly the same all through primary, Once she got to High School she found her own circle of friends and is now happy, popular etc.

Are there any local brownie groups she can join? Does she play a musical instrument? We have a local orchestra which do lots of activities alongside music.

Hope things improve before high school, :)

hully your satement about the glue that holds them together is a good one.Ds was badly bullied and when i confronted one of them and asked why,she said "I dont know,i think its because everyone does it"

" Bupcakes, I am NorthernWreck, Not Lurker. I am not sure NL would want to be associated with my ramblings!
Must namechange-too many Northerns!"

Oof! Sorry NorthernWreck!

How are you and DD today, Paranoid? FWIW, two of my oldest friends were HE'd (just didn't flourish in a conventional school tbh) and they did very well. Not socially insular in the slightest. The one girl is seriously considering home edding her own daughter.