The relationship section of MN makes my blood boil.

[aaaaaaaaargh]

I will never set virtual foot in there again. I have imprints on my forehead of the keyboard from where I have been banging my head against it. It makes no SENSE!!! I have a jaw like Jacob Marley. There are so many threads like this:

OP: The other day I was a miserable cow, kids were stressing me. He came home to a complete shithole and then proceeded to clean up. I could sense he was a bit miffed at the state of the house so I told him to cook his own fucking dinner. He wanted to tell me about a problem with work, but I was pissed off and told him I wasn't interested, tell someone who gives a shit. He then shouted that I didn't give a toss about him and stomped upstairs. I can't live like this anymore.

Reply: He cleaned up?? How controlling is he? He then tried to make you listen to his work problems? What about YOUR problems?

Reply: He's emotionally abusive, but you know this don't you.

Reply: Definitely controlling, he doesn't care about what you want. He wanted to make you clean up and listen to his problems. Why the fuck are you cooking his dinner?

Reply: He shouted at you? This is abusive behaviour. You don't have to put up with this, you need to really think about how to proceed. Has he shouted before? This isn't normal.

Reply: Well actually, you weren't too pleasant to him. Perhaps you should look at YOUR behaviour.

Reply (to above poster): Great support there, this woman lives with an emotional abuser. Don't speak if you haven't got anything constructive to say. Don't listen to that poster OP.

Etc, etc....

I know that a lot of people in seriously abusive or violent situations have been helped in this section, and that that is an extremely good thing, before you point that out to me.

But some of the replies on other threads!!! Madness.

I'm still struggling to work out the point of the OP.

So, aaaargh (or how ever many 'a's you want), you disagree with some of the advice that is being given.

So what? Mumsnet is like this on all the boards!

... and so are discussions in real life.

If you disagree, then put forward your own view and give your own advice. What's the problem?

#I'm still struggling to work out the point of the OP

I dislike the misandry on MN.

#If you disagree, then put forward your own view and give your own advice. What's the problem?

I am putting forward my own view, on this thread.

Why do you always give such laconic replies?

I fully accept that there are a lot of women in genuinly very abusive relationships on the Relationship Board. There are also lots of posters who do genuinely want to help and do a lot of good. However, there's also a tendancy to jump to massive conclusions about relationships because people don't have full details.

I think the issue with the relationship board is that people come to it when they're feeling pretty low and (often but not always) get the response to 'leave the fucker'. When people are in that frame of mind they're not sorting through posts objectively (particularly if the people saying 'leave the fucker' are also saying 'you're being controlled, you aren't thinking straight, you're defending him'). There's also a general sense of frustration 'here we go again, another one who needs it drilling into them why this behaviour isn't acceptable'

The response I got to a thread on the relationship board had me very very close to ending my marriage. It was a real life friend who made me see how crazy that was. I'm six months on and leaving would have been a massive mistake. That's not the case for everyone of course (and maybe not even for the majority) but this is a personal view point.

I get the impression that a lot of the people who post regularly in Relationships have had very distressing and negative relationship experiences, and this may colour their interpretations of an OP's situation.

When in fact the OP's situation is abusive, or the DH unfaithful or whatever this can be incredibly helpful and supportive. It's clear that a lot of people in horrible situations find it a real lifeline. I don't think anyone is contesting that.

But I do think there are times when the OP's situation is not that clear-cut, and it seems as though there might be another side to the story; in those situations responses along the lines of 'He's controlling; this is EA; LTB!' etc can seem a bit extreme or skewed.

I wouldn't post in Relationships if I had a row with DP. I would expect a fair few posters to start off by questioning whether it was a healthy relationship full stop. I know I love DP, and our relationship is pretty damn good, just with the usual ups and downs; I don't really want to discuss the downs on a basis of 'should I even be in this relationship?'. If I discuss a disagreement in my relationship I'd rather it be on the basis of 'let's look at both sides and find a constructive way forward'. I certainly don't want to be told by people who don't know my DP that he's some kind of abuser, based on really not much information at all.

Without dismissing the really valuable support some women in very difficult situations receive in Relationships, I think perhaps this is the bias the OP is talking about.

But don't you think there's a consensus on MN generally that we are likely to say "Leave the bastard" especially on the Relationships board. And we're also very likely to say "Yes, YABU" to anyone foolish enough to post an OP on AIBU !

I think there's some nice self-parody in the air which is some sort of balance !

Some relationships are in a grey area of whether it would be best for them to continue or not. That's life !

I haven't read the thread - but I know what you mean.

There does seem to be an assumption of dysfunction - when a much more obvious explanation would be "two tired adults trying their best to rub along together and do right by their commitments".

I always get the mirror version in 'parenting' or 'behaviour' . "I told my DD s couldn't have 2 puddings"
Reply " Why did you have children if you wanted to starve them"
Reply " Are you always this controlling? have you considered asking your GP for medication"
Reply " Have you never had two puddings, huh? Huh? Evil caaaawww."
Reply " Oooh , that is just so mean,"

JugglingWithSnowballs - the issue is that people that reply on the Relationships Board claim that there isn't that bias. Honestly, I was told that I was being abused but just couldn't recognise it at the moment. Over and over again. Any attempt to explain why I wasn't being abused was met by 'defending him, classic sign of someone who's in a co-dependent relationship'.

We must be reading totally different forums, OP. My experience of reading the Relationship section is one of constantly having to pick up my jaw from the floor after yet another insight into what (the doubtless small minority of) useless men in this world look like.

I wouldn't want to see myself sharing a life someone who hit me/threatened to hit me/locked a toddler in a small room to frighten him/insisted on separate food buying and then ate all my food/constantly denigrated my appearance- so why should I think it is a good thing for anybody else?

It is the opposite of misandry: it is having high standards for the man in your life. In my case, that springs from a sense of equality: I have high standards for men because I have high standards for women, and I happen to think that men are as good as women.

Misandry would be assuming that men are such poor, inferior creatures that they can't really be held to ordinary standards of decency and self-control. I have met too many good, competent, high principled men to believe that. It makes me impatient with the useless ones.

LOL LOL LOL OP - I completely agree!

manatee but the 'colouring of judgement' works both ways. People with no experience of abuse and only healthy relationships project their experiences too; 'just TALK to him' 'just TELL him he HAS to so them dishes' 'oh dear maybe he is tired' 'it was just an arguement'

People are often held in abusive relationships by this attitude

And do you think a RL friend would talk you out of ending your marriage if it WAS abusive, no they would be thankful you had seen the light.

It only resinates with the OPs if it is applicable

But why start a separate thread? Why not put forward your views on the relevant threads because, you know, that might help someone.

I completely agree with BIWI : why start a completely separate thread : why not offer advice, or put forward views on the relevant threads?

The reason for starting a separate thread is that this is a general issue on MN that merits discussion outside any particular example.

But bejeezus - I'm talking from personal experience here and being able to look back on what was said with hindsight. It was wrong because people weren't listening to what I was saying back because there was a presumption that I must be co-dependent and subject to abuse. If I had been, shouting that at me over and over again wasn't going to suddenly make me see the light, it was just going to make me leave the board and never come back.

I did get some good advice and some people made points that made me think. However, the (overwhelming) response of 'leave the fucker' was the wrong advice. DH fucked up big time but it was something that we could work through together.

I say again, my situation was probably a rare one and I'm sure that other posters have got valuable support. However, unfortunately, my view of the board has been coloured forever.

I post on the relationships thread although I haven't had experience of a violent or controlling Partner. I've had a long marriage, where we've both had to accommodate the other's flaws and work through them and change.

That's what colours my postings. That and my strongly held belief that good realtionships shouldn't hurt.

OP in your OP, you recognise that the relationship board is useful in helping people in 'seriously abusive or violent situations'

I'm interested in what you think constitutes serious abuse? At what level of abuse do you deem it acceptable to 'leave the bastard'?

Manatee nailed it. Great post.

But I don't see it as misandry (weird word) at all. I see it as promoting equality when women are encouraged to hold men to high standards.

Imo, the two main planks of misandry commonly found on here are:

Ooh, aren't men comically useless at housework? This patronises and infantiles men.

And... an OW has stolen my husband. No she hasn't, your adult partner has chosen to betray you.

Just thought of a third:

I'm sick of my mil interfering, being toxic, reducing me to tears, feeding our kids vodka and wham bars etc. She is such a bitch! (reply: does your dh defend you and the kids?) Oh god no, he's too nice and he hates confrontation.

Ie, women are responsible for policing men's actions, as they are too weak and stupid to take responsibility.

That's misandry.

#Why do you always give such laconic replies?

Because I have a lot of distractions and don't have the time to give more elaborate replies. There are a few things I will respond to when I get a 'window'.

The fact that I was called a man because of my views isn't misandry?

bejeezus That's certainly true and a fair point. However regular posters on any given section of a forum are self-selecting and so you're unlikely to get an even distribution of experience.

Or to put it another way (at the risk of generalising) I suspect that people with generally happy and untroubled relationships are less likely to be regulars in the Relationships section, so the response from regulars may be skewed towards an expectation of serious problems. That's not to say that people posting from their own unhappy experience have less valid views, but simply an observation that happier experiences may be under-represented within that particular population.

bedu
So your dh isn't abusive and the advice didn't resonate with you and was shot down by RL friends. That's good. Unfortunately you ARE in the minority.

I personally don't like the parenting board and a lot of the advice there irritates me. So I rarely visit it. But I DO recognise that its a really important and useful place for others. I would never try to discredit or ridicule it or the posters on it.

manatee yrs I agree that people in happy and healthy relationships are less likely to hang out at the relationship board

I also think people in a generally healthy relationship, rxperiencing a difficulty are less likely to post a problem than those with more serious issues. Not to say they don't, they do. And IME those kind of OPs often get less replies. Maybe because their are less people that can relate to the situation?

Hatty - things don't have to be either or, a football match with goals being scored in one direction OR the oterh.

I agree with some points on the OP, and I also agree with you! (about the 'oh, men aren't programmed to see washing up' etc)

But most of all I think that Relationships is not served well by anyone who sees it as a battle ground, a place for agendas to be played out other than listening carefully to what the OP says, asking the right questions, giving personal experience as a perspective, giving suggestions of practical advice - and observing the advice of the Women's Aid organisation linked below in how to support a woman in an abusive relationship. I understand that the OP's point is that 'abuse' is called too often and on too little evidence, but if the advice given by women's aid is followed, then that is good advice whether abuse is occurring or not.

I despair whan posters lose patience with an OP "oh, we've had this before, she posted the same problem a few months ago, she doesn't listenb to advice, we're wasting our time". That, also, does not recognise the reality of the fact that abuse destroys the very ability to resist it.

I could cite actual examples of these things, but I don't think it's ethical to drag vulnerable individual posters into a debate for the purposes of being exhibit A in order to 'win'.

LeBof -

I'm not trying to be provocative, that is your assumption. I started this thread to higlight an issue that is being ignored. There are enough responses on here, maybe not saying that I'm absolutely right (although, actually there are a few), but saying 'yes, there is an element of this on MN', to warrant discussion. If this is trolling..well,

You do not need my posting history. What is that going to tell you? I may well be regularly posting on the behaviour development threads, about sleep issues with my DS. But from now on I'm not going to be known as the poor woman whose baby never sleeps, just the woman-hater. My posting history has absolutely no relevence to this thread.

FWIW, I find posts where the respondants have trawled though the OP's posting history, and then come back on to say 'Well actually you said THIS 2 years ago, so you're a hypocrite'..really bloody annoying.