To punish DD every time she wets herself.

[sleepdeprivedby2]

DD is five years old and still wets herself multiple times a day, in the last 6 months she has been dry for 2 days!

I am at my wits end as we have tried absolutely everything to help her, star/reward charts, lots of praise for going to the toilet etc etc, you name it over the last 2 years we have tried it. The only thing we haven't tried is a consequence for being wet!

We are currently waiting for a paediatric referral but this has been cancelled once, so I am not holding out much hope.

The main crux of the problem is that she just doesn't care about being wet, going to the toilet is an inconvenience which she puts off and off. She will wet her pants and still not go to the toilet!

Normally I just ignore it as much as possible and then send her to get herself changed but I am completely fed up of her whole attitude towards it and her determination not to help herself.

We have bought her a watch which vibrates during the school day (every 1.5 hours) to remind her to go, but she just ignores it, puts it in her bag or leaves it at home! Every day when I pick her up she has had at least one change of clothes and is usually wet again and she smells really bad!

Tonight at bath time, she got in the bath (with her 2 year old brother) and stood and wee'd in the bath rather than go to the toilet less than a meter away. I took her out the bath, put her on the toilet and told her to sit there whilst I refilled the bath at which point she started screaming at me so I calmly picked her up and put her in bedroom and shut the door.
Two minutes later she comes in the bathroom "mummy it was a bad idea to put me my room because now there is poo on the floor".
At which point I explained that her behaviour was completely unacceptable, told her to go to the toilet, walked out the bathroom, cleaned the carpet and went to play with her brother.

I know everyone says to ignore the bad behaviour and praise the good but as you can see it's just not working!! There are no real consequences to her wetting herself, we send her to get changed and she plays in her room still in her wet clothes or puts one of her princess dresses on.

So do we give her a consequence every time she wets to make her realise that this is not acceptable or do we continue to ignore through gritted teeth and hope she is dry before her tenth birthday.

Thanks for reading

What kind of person uses the word 'moron'???

And disagreeing with someone makes it ok to use vile, disablist, terminology does it?

Poisonous Pedagogy (excuse spelling), its all over this thread (sadly). Anyway, hopefully kids will be better in the end.

I'll take that as a yes then

You know Jane, the fact the only thing you keep using to try to defend your position is something nobody said, and the fact you completely ignore it when people spell out over and over that nobody ever said it and your clinging to it as a defence is therefore bonkers, proves you know full well you are in the wrong here, but don't have the common sense or grace to admit it, apologise to the OP, and move on.

It's a pity. A simple, "sorry, I misread the thread and it hit a nerve, I didn't mean to offend" would go a long way.

I don't think you should punish her, there has got to be something underlying. There is another way around getting a referral, 2 in fact. You could speak to the school nurse and ask for a referral to the continence service or ask your health visitor to do the same. I would say that would be your best option while you wait for the paed referral.

Children can also wet themselves for all sorts of reasons which are not physical or emotional.

My nephew wet and soiled himself until he was about 7/8. The reason for it was simply because he'd rather carry on playing than take himself to the toilet which he openly admitted once he was old enough. He outgrew it himself.

A friends child, who is 5 still wets herself. She never does at school because of the embarrassment amongst her friends. However, at home that embarrassment no longer exists (clearly quite comfortable around her parents) and she'd rather carry on playing than go to the toilet. And she will quite happily sit in it too. Quite often, nobody knows until she sits on someones lap for a cuddle or when getting changed for bed (unless there's an obvious wet patch).

Some children just aren't that bothered and don't see the importance. If they're not too bothered about feeling comfortable either then that's an added reason as to why they fail to see the whole point of toiletting.

That said, until you have ruled out a medical issue OP, I wouldn't punish her. As you said she could hold it when she was expecting a treat, such as a trip out (which also suggests it's not a medical issue so you should inform doctor), I'd go down the route of offering these treats until she gets into the habit of going.

OP you've had mixed responses here (and one nutter). Since some think it could be medical and some think it could be wilful ...but punishment won't help I really would work on nil attention for wetting as a response. I can see you are completely frazzled. Who wouldn't be?

You also sound like a mother who is trying to do the very best and asking for advice on this topic is part of that.

Jane - you are really special. You've deliberately taken a stance making out that the mother is doing/thinking/saying things which she isn't because you've now got an argument to win? (I will not back down?????) I can imagine as a mother you are very controlling. That is the way you come across. I'd love to see you with teenagers...yours may tolerate your attitude now but inside they are probably sick of it

OP I was in the exact same situation till a week ago and we've (fingers crossed) cracked it - colouring reward charts and competition with younger brother did it for DD (5.3). There is light at the end of the tunnel. It really ISN'T her fault and she IS bothered. She's scared, confused and frustrated too.

Thanks everyone for your responses. In the light of the morning I know punishing her is not the way to go, I just get so frustrated with it that 'I need to do something' if that makes sense.

She currently earns PC time at the end of the day if she is dry after school, but despite having her watch and the teachers reminding her she is always wet (usually with one change of clothes as well), so she never earns the reward.

Over christmas she was invited to a threatened party at the same venue where she wet herself multiple times on our last trip. I therefore said that if she wanted to go (I was very concerned about leaving her at the party) she needed to improve her wetting. She turned round and said that she didn't want to go to the party anyway and it would save me money by not having to buy a present.

I am trying to solve this for her, because at the end of the day the other children will start to notice and call her names and not want to play with her.

Hmm may I make a suggestion? Why don't you offer a reward for going to the toilet and sitting on it for five minutes rather than actually peeing. I started out this way with DS who was very reluctant and once he'd got the hang of that we moved on to actually performing!

The reality is most five year olds wet themselves sometimes and yes kids can be cruel but at five they are still in that tiny world where only they exist so don't fret about that just yet. :)

You'll get through this. You both will.

I agree with everyone else: don't punish her. I don't know what you should do - I'm not a doctor or an expert in child behaviour. Obviously you don't know at the moment whether it's physical or psychological in cause (and it is very weird behaviour!) but I think while waiting for an appointment with the paediatrician, it might be worth making an appointment with a child psychologist if you can afford it.

You could also maybe have a hunt around the web to see if there are any support forums for this kind of thing - there are bound to be other parents going through something similar.

It's quite possible, as others have said, that she will grow out of it in time - you don't see many teenagers who wet themselves - but I can quite understand that you don't want to have to wait however long it might take for that to happen.

Only read the OP, so apologies if this has been said, but my DS was very very similar in reception. Wetting two, three, four times a day and smelling very bad. It was worse when it was winter.

It got better. I went to doctor, tried star charts etc etc etc. Firstly, the teacher said don't worry about the smell, she never noticed it amid the general fug of 30 small children and that other 4/5 year olds would def not notice. (and now in year one, still occasionally wets and smells, but much much better. AFAIK there has been no one who said anything about the smell).

Then I spoke to a psychologist. THey said there is nothing you can do, other than wait for summer when things get warmer, less clothing and generally easier to manage. It did get MUCH better in summer, and has got slightly worse again this winter, but far better than last year.

I had to practically bite my tongue off not to say anything, other than "go and change your trousers", but it removed all stress, interest from it and got better.

A lot of it was to do with learnt behaviour and also, I think, partly to do with a naturally not very strong bladder.

It is so easy to say just ignore it and so hard to do. I think you have to genuinely not care as far as possible and the child will pick up on it.

Oh, also one more thing, it may be worth reading the NICE guidelines on bed wetting on the internet. 400+ pages about bladder control in small children but it is reassuring. (DS Still not dry at night age 6, ties in with a bit rubbish bladder I think)

Jane, what fuck thread have you been reading?!

OP says during timeout her dd knows the toilet is always an option. So she has access to toilets at ALL TIMES. You seem to think she is giving and taking away access to toilets to taunt her. You are wrong, antagonistic and detracting from the issue.

OP, your daughter really should be seen by a specialist. Could you afford to go private? You'd be seen next day. I get thorough tests done On bladder control whilst they are analysing the emotional side of the issue.

OP I totally understand your upset and frustration and desperation to make this stop. My DD had frequent accidents a day from 3-5 and I too tried everything. I was back and forth to doctors, HVs, teachers, friends, everyone giving their two pence worth. Made not an
Iota of difference. I still had a little girl who was wetting herself up to 6 times a day, mountains of washing and ironing and could go nowhere without a suitcase of clothes.

In the end I burst into tears in the doctors and got referred to paediatric urologist. DDs problem was medical, she has an over active bladder, and within 1 week the medicine she was given kicked in and we've not looked back since. She will probably be on it until puberty but so be it. It works.

I look back on the earlier years and want to die of shame that I got so cross with her and we didn't do something earlier but chances are I would have had the same advice from the professionals and would have had to reach the end of my tether before anyone really listened. Your dd might
Not have a medical issue but it is worth checking out ASAP. Based on our experience, you might save some time if you start keeping a diary of how and when accidents occur (yes, I know!) as urologist will want some details to show frequency. Also they will ask how she goes to the toilet. Does she sit well back, sit up straight and make sure her bladder properly empty? She needs to take big breath in and out at the end to ensure this apparently. Is she drinking at least 8 glasses of water a day? Avoid blackcurrant squash and cheap fruit sweets with lots of colourants in them.

I know this sounds stupid but it's where they will start so if you are waiting ages for referral then when you do see them you can show up with all this stuff on record and get to looking at the problem properly.

Whatever the cause turns out to be my heart really goes out to you though, it is so hard to explain to anyone who's not been there how upsetting and frustrating for everyone involved.

www.eric.org.uk/

ERIC helpline 0845 370 8008

A five year old who can hold on sometimes without wetting when she wishes, and who (apparently deliberately) poos on the floor and is defiant about it is a real concern - physical, emotional or a combination, who knows.

The ERIC helpline not only listens and supports, but knows where specialist help is (paediatric continence clinic). Clinics have physicians and psychologists and behaviour specialists, plus a team of nurse supporters.

They would generally advise tackling this problem now. The later you leave it, the longer and more difficult it is to resolve it. Too often, parents have been in exactly the position you are in, OP - backwards and forwards with doctors, attempts at changing your own responses, rewards, ignoring etc etc etc. The clinics have a good success rate and take the frustration out of the situation.

please read my story

My DD was the same as yours wetting and often soiling herself frequently.She didn't seem to give a damn about it .She was a bright healthy little girl ,up to and in most cases ahead, with her other milestones
The HVs to begin with said she was just late getting it and then they said it was behavioural and she was doing it to get attention maybe because she was jealous of baby sister.I spoke to many HVs and GPs.
Like you I tried everything and got more and more angry and frustrated with her, because she just didn't care.
One day I found information on the internet about faecal impaction and took that to the GP who referred to the paed.He explained that she had no feeling of wanting to 'go' and the don't care attitude is just a means of the child protecting herself 'building up a wall' against being hurt by being blamed for something she doesn't know how to help.She was on Movicol within weeks and things improved.But the damage had been done.I was left ith a child with painfully low esteem, spurned and bullied by her peer group and too shy to speak to anyone outside the family.She changed school and the new school is very small and absolutely fab and she is gradually improving.But

I will never ever shake that feeling of guilt of all those years of not giving her the benefit of the doubt, allowing all those pre-school staff, grandparents, teachers and myself to inflict every toilet training system technique in the universe on her.She can never get what should have been happy pre school and reception years back again.

please please don't make the same mistake with your LO.Give her the benefit of the doubt.If you are not on her side , who will be?

OP what you say about threats and rewards no longer having any effect just shows that in a way she has just become used to living like this, all she can hear is people flapping and flailing around her and she has tuned out, except to occasionally flare up at you. After all she is only five, so the complex reasons for her wetting might not be apparent to her, even though five from a behavioural point of view is plenty old enough not to wet. She probably feels safer thinking she doesn't "care", even though to us it might seem obvious that the problem of everyone being cross would be solved by her just trying to remember to go to the toilet when she needs to..When you are five you don't make the connection between the problem and the solution. She is solving the "problem" of the wetting in the only way she is capable of, which is, not to care. I know it seems unnatural and frustrating that she should think that way, but it is her only way of dealing with the situation, even though to us as adults the problem is so easy...

Hope all the posters who have experienced similar is of some comfort, you are really not alone, and you are NOT a bad mother, nor is your daughter a bad child.

x post with dandelion, dandelion you are very brave to have got through that, what a difficult time, sometimes when something like that happens you can build an even stronger relatonship with your child because of what you ahve been through together, even if it was so terribly painful. Hugs to your dd and you.

Just read your latest post sleepdeprived and just wanted to say of course you are "trying to solve this for her"

Am glad you've decided that punishment is not a frame of mind you want to get into on this. Possibly consequences, but I'd keep them positive. Nearly all experts will say that with improving any behaviour ( if that is the issue here at all for your dd and there aren't other reasons) then positive reinforcement of good behaviour is more effective and much better for a child emotionally.

I think you need to seek out as many sources of support with this as you can.
Your patience is very impressive ! Keep it up and you will give your daughter the best start in life, the best help with this problem, and the precious gift of unconditional love

What I meant about you saying you are trying to solve this for her is that I for one don't doubt that for a minute. I know you just want what's best for her.

Hi, just a thought if you can get school on board to help. Rather than giving her the watch and setting it for 1.5 hours. Can you get teacher or TA to send her to the loo every hour? This can be done very discreetly.Glad you agree that punishment is the way to go.At age 5 she is too young (IMO) to be responsible for this, especially since there may actually be something physical going on. Maybe she goes to the loo so often that her classmates make fun of her and she figures if she's wet then they won't notice - she is only 5.

We have problems with my little boy ( almost 7 just now). In preparation for Urology appointment we have to record all fluid in and all fluids out for 4 days. having already done 2 days it's clear that our son pees 14 times per day and once at night. When he goes sometimes he only does 30ml other times he does 100ml. He often has accidents and can't wait at all to go. Even when he produced only 30 ml he behaved like he was desparate. he also occasionally wets and says nothing. TBH I do think he is fed up with going to the loo. It is very restricitve and averages more than once an hour in the day. |His anatomy is very different and his liver is in his lower abdomen and I believe thatint he day it presses on his bladder ( like a pregnant lady) and he can manage better at night because he's lying down, therefore less pressure. Bit TMI sorry. ust wanted to outline that there can be many reasons and if she does need to go often, for whatever reason, then maybe she just gets fed up.

Hope you can get the paed appointment quickly and they can get to the bottom of the problem for her. xxx