To punish DD every time she wets herself.

[sleepdeprivedby2]

DD is five years old and still wets herself multiple times a day, in the last 6 months she has been dry for 2 days!

I am at my wits end as we have tried absolutely everything to help her, star/reward charts, lots of praise for going to the toilet etc etc, you name it over the last 2 years we have tried it. The only thing we haven't tried is a consequence for being wet!

We are currently waiting for a paediatric referral but this has been cancelled once, so I am not holding out much hope.

The main crux of the problem is that she just doesn't care about being wet, going to the toilet is an inconvenience which she puts off and off. She will wet her pants and still not go to the toilet!

Normally I just ignore it as much as possible and then send her to get herself changed but I am completely fed up of her whole attitude towards it and her determination not to help herself.

We have bought her a watch which vibrates during the school day (every 1.5 hours) to remind her to go, but she just ignores it, puts it in her bag or leaves it at home! Every day when I pick her up she has had at least one change of clothes and is usually wet again and she smells really bad!

Tonight at bath time, she got in the bath (with her 2 year old brother) and stood and wee'd in the bath rather than go to the toilet less than a meter away. I took her out the bath, put her on the toilet and told her to sit there whilst I refilled the bath at which point she started screaming at me so I calmly picked her up and put her in bedroom and shut the door.
Two minutes later she comes in the bathroom "mummy it was a bad idea to put me my room because now there is poo on the floor".
At which point I explained that her behaviour was completely unacceptable, told her to go to the toilet, walked out the bathroom, cleaned the carpet and went to play with her brother.

I know everyone says to ignore the bad behaviour and praise the good but as you can see it's just not working!! There are no real consequences to her wetting herself, we send her to get changed and she plays in her room still in her wet clothes or puts one of her princess dresses on.

So do we give her a consequence every time she wets to make her realise that this is not acceptable or do we continue to ignore through gritted teeth and hope she is dry before her tenth birthday.

Thanks for reading

I am not wacky. I am very conservative actually. I believe in values, freedom, discipline and love, just not punishing 5 year olds for medical/emotional reasons.

So what is the difference between discipline (good) and 'punishment' (bad)?

AftDel, Giving children freedom to pee in "Timeouts" as a priviledge screams wrong on the most basic loving level, to me. All wrong, all-screwed up about children and love at the most basic level.

The fact she stood up to wee in the bath when the toilet is just there shows a complete lack of effort to go properly and that is worrying. I hope you get your referral soon. You have amazing patience!

jane as I have said before you are clearly deliberately misinterpreting it. If the op's dd averse to using the toilet she may have felt the need to make it clear to her that being in time-out (which afaik involves staying in one place for a set amount of time) doesn't mean that she can't go to the loo. Permission has not been asked for or granted and it is in no way a privilege!

SM, I believe it is something we have to work out for ourselves and we all interpret differently. All children need to know what is good or acceptable (or unnacceptable) behaviour, but with love, just my take.

Secretmincerinser I very rarely punish, tbh. Nor do I use rewards much. I talk with my son - he's never hit anyone but me, and he only did that when he was two, and I used to just get "Hands Are Not for Hitting" out and sit down and read it with him. It worked. And if his behaviour is unacceptable now I intervene quickly, by firmly explaining something is wrong, and why. I certainly don't "just ask nicely", but nor do I punish. Parenting styles vary, and so do outcomes - I mean, some kids with very punitive parents are badly behaved. My basic belief is that a loved, consistently parented child will probably do okay in the end, and the hows matter a lot less. His pre-school use all the traditional time-outs and stickers and what not, and he loves it so much he doesn't like coming home! So despite their disciplinary methods not being ones I am comfy with myself, he is doing great and I trust them to get on with it, as they're very child-centred and loving otherwis. Personally, I'd rather a kid stopped doing something because they felt it was unkind than because they were scared of getting caught, because the former is more reliable when adults are absent. But with loving, principled parents, I think all kids get there in the end, so it probably doesn't matter much much how. And if all else fails, trying something different just seems sensible, to me.

My issue with Jane isn't her parenting theorising - take out the hysteria and we're probably thinking along similar lines. (Though I'm not militant about it, and am happy to accept that I may need to try other methods if my own stop working. I'm very child-centred, too, but I think that's a method, not a religion.) It's her breathtaking narcissism in believing she, and she alone, knows what is best in all cases, for all children. Many people have politely and thoughtfully indicated that they think the issue might be emotional, and nobody's minded that. Jane, sadly, apparently needs to make everything about her.

Jane, you can validate your own bad behaviour, and rationalise the response you've got, by telling yourself it's because we all don't want to accept our own cruel, cruel attitude to kids. Problem is, you're lying to yourself. The reason people are annoyed is you are completely self-absorbed, and totally bloody rude. You don't give a damn about this child, or you'd have tried to couch your advice in such a way that people might actually listen, rather than jump in posturing heroically. You just want to feel good about yourself, and you don't give two hoots if it's at the expense of the stressed, frazzled mother who made the original post. That isn't saying pleasant things about you, however self-deceptive you want to be about the fact.

I understand there is a frazzled mother. But my concern, I admit, lies with the punished child.

"AftDel, Giving children freedom to pee in "Timeouts" as a priviledge screams wrong on the most basic loving level, to me. All wrong, all-screwed up about children and love at the most basic level."

And now you are inventing things nobody ever said as validation. It's really ridiculous - the only person you're fooling here is you.

I think the incentives are nothing in comparison to the "attention incentive", and anyway as I pointed out, at this stage everything is probably so muddled in her mind and body , wet and dry etc, that you are just setting yourself for more tears and battles if you expect her to come back home dry one day and watch telly I think it is so powerful the mindset that reward charts and rewards like telly aren't really going to make a difference at this stage as OP has already pointed out.
I would advocate masses of cuddling, masses of attention (not related to wet/dry), and trying to ignore the day to day wetting whilst seeking professional help in the meantime for an overview of situation. If you need to take her out of school for a week to solve the problem you should. It is possible to get so bogged down in thinking she should be dry she should be dry that you lose sight of the most obvious way to deal with it.

Just a suggestion, Swan.

I feel the nutters are out to get me but-so-be-it, p.s. I am not a narcsissit jeez. I still think the adult should get a grip at some stageon this problem, thats all. What about this poor kid?

I'm not big on punishment either. But if my 4 yr old was repeatedly and purposefully stamping on a 1 yr olds fingers at the park (which was what happened to my ds) and talking wasn't working we would leave.

'People who disagree with me are nutters - I'm not a narcsissit (sic)' Quote of the week anyone?

Thats what she said PerfectStorm. No understanding or open-ness to medical ideas or medical adice, mostly just punishment.

Oh, what self-aggrandising bullshit. The mother is posting here, and your one and only way of helping and supporting that child is to help and support her mother. But no; you attack the mother and mop your fevered brow and piously post that you are concerned about the child!11!! While everyone else here is just an evil crone who wants her whipped with leathers.

Seriously, it could not be more obvious that your only interest here is to constantly tell yourself what a better parent and person you are than everyone else, that you're fighting against a tide of child cruelty, that 'tis a nobler thing you do, blah blah bullshitcakes. Because, Jane, that is what it is. Bullshit. Your only interest is in making yourself feel good. I'm sorry you are incapable of backing down, and acknowledging that gasp other people love their kids too, even if they don't agree with our Alfie Kohnist ideas about good parenting. But how about you go away and think about why it is that you think the best way to help a child whose mother is at the end of her rope - is by insulting, attacking, and belitting that mother? Because funnily enough, I don;'t think that method works. It isn't going to make her more patient, or more positive, or more hopeful (though frankly, reading all she's done, I think she'd put Job to shame). It's obviously All. About. You.

Interesting, that you are so strident an advocate of treating people decently - if they're kids. Adults, you are happy to bully, belittle and jeer at as a default response. Tell me, is their a precise height restriction on your conception of human decency? You must be saintly towards anyone under 4 ft 5", but over that you can be as aggressive and unpleasant as you like?

If you think I am going to back down and say the OP can take her kid and give her or deny her toilet privileges in her Timeout, or whatever, and then wonder why her child has these issues, think agian. It may make me unpopular but guess, I dont' care.

"I'm not big on punishment either. But if my 4 yr old was repeatedly and purposefully stamping on a 1 yr olds fingers at the park (which was what happened to my ds) and talking wasn't working we would leave."

Jesus Christ, and all she did was ask them to stop? That falls under the heading of stupidity being doing the same thing, and expecting a different response. God, how shameful.

I'd not punish mine for that with a set punishment (he's 3, and I think it can be a distraction from what he did, to arbitrarily do so) but I would be visibly angry, explain in precise detail how horrible that was, and take him straight home. After I'd groveled, redfaced, to that poor toddler and their mum.

I hope your poor bub's fingers are okay.

DD has told me herself that she has left it too late because she has been having fun before now. Or I've asked her if she needs a wee and she says 'yes a bit but I don't need to go yet!'. I don't blame her as such (when I was 4 playing in the park with friends was likely more appealing than going for a wee) but it's not always some big underlying issue. It may be in this case but you don't know that.

"If you think I am going to back down and say the OP can take her kid and give her or deny her toilet privileges in her Timeout, or whatever, and then wonder why her child has these issues, think agian. It may make me unpopular but guess, I dont' care."

No, Jane, nobody expects you to say that, because, as you well know because it has been spelled out to you in minute detail, nobody ever said she should in the first place. Nobody expects you to hold a view on whether the OP should consder female genital mutilation as an appropriate punishment, either. On identical grounds - nobody suggested it should be.

Is that clear, or should we type more slowly?

Fingers are fine it was a while ago - he's 2 next week .

I think jane's built herself a wee strawman. Always the sign of a strong argument.

I am not sure AIBU is the right place for this.

My DS1 is 5 and he has also been wetting himself every day. I went to the GP and was told no referral until her was 7!!! Luckily we have private medical insurance and we went to see a pediatrician who specialises toilet issues who diagnosed an overactive bladder, so its very hard for him to control. He prescribed medication and provided we manage to force him to take it, its much easier for him to stay dry.

We still have issues with him though, as he can't be bothered to go at school breaktimes, and waits until he is desperate and then wets himself. We don't punish but he does have a star chart, DH is going to take him to see star wars if he gets enough stars.

He's still not dry at night - he was dry in the day from 2.5 years to 4 years (when he had an operation under general anesthetic....)