or is my dh over family holiday?

[doublechocchip]

Last year dh, I and the children went on holiday with my parents- we all had a great time including dh who was a bit apprehensive to begin with about spending a whole week with the 'inlaws'. We all were keen to go again this year (my parents own a house in france so it makes it a cheap holiday), so parents went ahead and booked it a few weeks ago and we were excited about going.

Now every February my dad, my uncle and dads best mate go over to the house for about 3 days to 'open it up' after the winter when nobody goes, usually includes a lot of DIY around the house/garden and field. We were round at my parents house a couple of weeks ago and dh just suddenly asked my dad if he could tag along as there was space in the car, and my dad said a flat out no. dh offered to do the cooking/cleaning (and I know he would have) but dad still said no. Both my mum and I thought my dad was being a bit mean and have said so to him but I would never dream of asking to go away with some-one I would ALWAYS wait to be invited! In my mind if you ask something like this have to prepare yourself for a no.

Well dh has taken massive offence to this and now doesn't want to go away with us all in the summer claiming he thinks my dad doesn't like him. Ive told him I think he is being a bit ridiculous, they had a great time together last summer (I am one of 3 girls) so think my dad enjoyed having another male around and that my dad probably just likes the set-up he has at the moment with the other guys. Dh is 30 years younger than all of them and this might play a factor too.

I think he's within his rights to feel a little hurt but I think he is being unreasonable to not want to go on holiday as I feel he's putting his feelings about what he 'thinks' my dad feels about him over me and the children wanting him there. He thinks Im being selfish asking him to go, aibu?

A wife's uncle is pretty close family. The DH met and liked him.

He's never going to get to know them better if they won't spend time with him.

I am with your DH on this op. I would be very hurt if the in law woman were going somewhere and I was told I was not invited. It would be the end of my relationship with my MIL. You either part of the family and included or you not.

I wonder if these men dont do something other than "open up the place" when they away. If they do just open up, then its in very poor taste that they cant include your DH who has obviously put himself out there to make the effort with them.

"Family means including people"?

Well no, not necessarily and not necessarily including them in everything. We've got a cheerfully extended family - some in London, some here. We all get on very well (with the possible exception of DP's ex-wife's grumpy old git of a husband) and enjoy meeting for family meals, drinks etc.

However, just because we sometimes get together when everyone is down here, doesn't mean that we expect to see all or any of them every time they are in the area. None of us have any obligation to involve family members in every single social event we attend. But then nobody would dream of putting anyone else on the spot by angling for invitations either.

I think the OP's DH is seriously over-thinking the whole issue and jumping to wild conclusions. Not going on this trip is not an indication that his FIL dislikes him. Instead, FIL is being honest in the face of embarrassingly persuasive tactics.

I don't think pregnant was mean at all

Is it so hard to understand that someone is closer to their own sister than their SIL and might want to spend time alone with her?

It's the SIL destroying that relationship because she can't understand something so basic.

I don't know why people take it so personally when people have close relationships with other people.

I get on great with my ILs

It might actually be related to the fact that I don't invite myself to everything they do, and vice versa.

dad has said its nothing personal and that he wouldn't invite any son-in-laws

Not dad said it's nothing personal and they just like to get away the three of them. I wouldn't think much of my dad if he was so dismissive of my dh. The op said her and her mum both thought the dad was being mean.

I am very close to my SIL, she is probably my 'best friend' (we also live within walking distance). However we are both very close to our own sisters who both live abroad and neither of us see them very much. When one of our actual sisters are staying neither of us would dream of muscling in on their time together. We are family,we like each other but we aren't under any obligation to include each other or indeed anyone in everything we do.

No way on earth would my sister and I, who are very close, ever dream of being so horrible as to tell our SIL that she couldn't come out with us if she asked.

Of course we are closer to each other than we are to her, and of course we spend time together without her.

But if she reached out to us and asked to be included in something we were doing, EVEN if it felt like an imposition, we would still happily make the effort and invite her along.

If we refused, she would be hurt. Obviously, because it would be a hurtful thing to do to reject her like that.

You can blame the hurt party for having feelings all you like, but if you are hurtful to people, you are responsible for any damage to the relationship.

Family means including people.

That doesn't mean everyone has to come to everything, just that you should try to be nice to people and make them feel secure and included in your family.

Which rejecting their attempts (even if a little hamfisted) does not.

When you're on the inside (as the father is here), it doesn't cost much to make a bit of an effort to include those on the outside (the DH).

Still can't understand why someone apparently so sensitive would ask to tag along when he knew the chance of yes was 50% and the chance of no was also 50%. Unless he was used to getting his own way and it never occurred to him that he wouldn't.

Nor can I understand why someone would think horning in is the same as inclusion and infer from a No that you are not being treated as family. Family gets told No occasionally, at least in my family.

Nor can I understand how the dad thought a blank No would be ok though. I can see how a No like that could have been meant as a reprimand for perceived rudeness. I can see how an outright request could have surprised him to the extent that he blurted something out.

He now needs to apologise and the DH's true nature will be revealed when that happens -- if he accepts the apology and adds one of his own for putting the dad on the spot and stops sulking about the proposed family holiday then all will be fine. If he still sulks then I think there are more things going on with him than just what has been revealed by this one incident.

From what has been said, the dad may not in fact have an entirely positive opinion of the DH -- when he told him not to take it personally he may have been hinting that he thinks the DH is too precious about himself in general. And the fact that he refused so quickly and comprehensively perhaps indicates that the DH may be irritating above and beyond the normal interloper situation (the OP's reference to the DH's loudness and talkativeness may be a clue there). The DH might need to sit down and think about how he comes across and also how he reacts to his perceptions.

:o

Sorry, I really love you mathanxiety, you're one of my absolute posters, but WTF are you on about with 50-50 chances of the answer being yes or no?

:o

Just because there are two answers (and arguable a third - maybe) doesn't mean there is an equal chance of each coming up.

In fact there was 0 chance of a positive answer, but the DH presumably thought the probability was higher than that.

People read social situation wrong sometimes, especially in families when they are not lifelong members.

That doesn't make them bad people.

"Of course we are closer to each other than we are to her, and of course we spend time together without her."

Well you wouldn't spend time together without other people would you, if 3rd parties had to be included whenever they wanted to be. When you don't see your siblings much time together is precious and a sibling relationship isn't the same as extended family. I see my SIL and her sis when her sis is staying with her but I don't invite myself out with them because I don't want to be the 3rd wheel and put them in the position of feeling they should put my feelings above their own.

I haven't seen my own sister for 4 years so its less of an issue but if I wanted to spend time alone with her when she came over then I bloody well would. My SIL is lovely but I don't prioritise her above my sister or me. I can't imagine asking to go on holiday with another persons siblings or close friends and actually feeling rejected when they said no. Surprised, possibly, disappointed probably but rejected and humiliated, no.

If I ever got married and had a honeymoon I wouldn't take my DC. It doesn't mean they aren't family or that I don't love them, it just means I want to spend some time alone with my DH.

It seems from some of the posts on here that some posters think the DH should be included and the feelings of the other three men are irrelevant.

Hmm still a real mix of opinions, hard to see who is being unreasonable! I did think my dad could have invited dh along however I don't know what goes on there and how their dynamics work and feel it was up to my dad to say if he wanted him there or not.

I just don't understand why anyone would invite themselves in this scenario I don't agree with just because people are family they should be included in everything, I think it does show a lack of social understanding e.g. the above poster whose sil asked to go on a night out I completely understand why you said no and you would think the sil would have the common sense to understand you wanted to catch up and would not even think to ask! Surely you would wait to be invited out??

Its the sulking I can't stand and the little comments like 'oh you and the kids will have a great time away at least you're wanted' I just find that childish and start to lose sympathy for dh!

Your DH was not being unreasonable to ask if he could go and help open the house up - I actually thought this thread would be about him being asked to do that and not wanting to (ie only wanting to go for holiday not to put in any effort with the preparations). By the same token your DF was not being unreasonable in saying no if, as you say, he finds your DH irritating. But it then follows that your DH is not being unreasonable in not wanting to go on holiday with a man who finds him irritating. Any analogies with MILs tagging along on girly weekends are entirely irrelevant - this isn't some random weekend at a beer festival, your DH probably thought he was being genuinely helpful by offering to lend a hand. Actually I think all holidays with in-laws are a minefield and try to avoid them at all costs - if your DF really did enjoy your DH's company last year then he may well have shot himself in the foot since it would appear he has blown a hole in family relations and he ought to do everything he can to make amends.

It doesn´t follow though that just because OPs father doesn´t want his SIL on the weekend trip that he doesn´t like him & doesn´t want to see him for the holiday-does it?

I wouldn't want to go on holiday with someone who found me irritating.

He didn't say he found him irritating. Its by no means the only or prime reason you wouldn't want your son IL coming away with you and your bro and best mate.

He didn't say anything, but what would you infer? DF could have said something along the lines of "Thanks for the offer, but you don't have to tag along with three old codgers. There's loads of stuff to do - we have our own routine, no need for you to to take time off work for that - just enjoy the holiday in the summer."

"He asked on the spot and my dad said no but with a bit of an awkard laugh, then dh asked if he really couldn't come and my dad just said theyd be busy with diy-ing and thats when dh offered his cooking help but my dad replied that my uncle usually does that,"

Seems to me that they just have their way of doing things.

Can´t see why OPs husband pushed the matter tbh.

OP-why is he so keen to go?

It could also be that either the uncle or the mate don't like the dh, and the df feels between a rock and a hard place. He also couldn't just say 'yes' without checking with them first, and then be put in the invidious position of still having to say no. Perhaps he thought it better just to get it over with.

As for 'Its the sulking I can't stand and the little comments like 'oh you and the kids will have a great time away at least you're wanted' Just agree that you and the kids will have a great time and end the conversation. Your dh is looking to have sunshine blown up his arse. Tell him he's acting like a sulky teenager and that you appreciate the practice for when the kids are older.

I suspect if you had asked to go on your dad's old blokes trip he'd have sid no to you as well, so his comment about you being wanted and him not wanted is sounding increasingly petulant. He sounds like the sort of "sensitive" person who is only "sensitive" to their own needs with no ability to see things from anyone else's point of view. Sadly alot of people who claim to be "sensitive" are like that. the sensitivity only works one way, and they really mesn "I am prone to sulky tantrums and taking things personally if I don't get what I want".

So what was he wouldn't invite any son in laws about then? Either the dad is a bit of a prat or he's got a crap sense of humour.

Another thing - as for families mean including everyone - no they bloody don't. Families all have different dynamics, and there is no way that anyone should have to say yes to including someone in a long standing arrangement when put on the spot. Courtesy dictates that one waits to be asked.

" He didn't say anything, but what would you infer?"

I would infer that the 3 older blokes wanted to spend time with each other and that the FIL wanted to relax rather than having to play the host, the way you do when you are the common denominator between 2 groups, that FIL wanted to take about his wife and children in the way you can't when your child's spouse is present. Or I might think that FIL hadn't wanted the other 2 blokes to not get the type holiday they had expected and presumably paid for. Then I might start to think about a bevy of prostitutes or FIL keeps a mistress in France or they are really going to Vegas and are only pretending to go on a DIY trip or they are staggeringly drunk for the whole trip and didn't want their behaviour reported back to their children, then I might start to think the relationship was a bit lopsided, then I might start to think about irritatingness.