or is my dh over family holiday?

[doublechocchip]

Last year dh, I and the children went on holiday with my parents- we all had a great time including dh who was a bit apprehensive to begin with about spending a whole week with the 'inlaws'. We all were keen to go again this year (my parents own a house in france so it makes it a cheap holiday), so parents went ahead and booked it a few weeks ago and we were excited about going.

Now every February my dad, my uncle and dads best mate go over to the house for about 3 days to 'open it up' after the winter when nobody goes, usually includes a lot of DIY around the house/garden and field. We were round at my parents house a couple of weeks ago and dh just suddenly asked my dad if he could tag along as there was space in the car, and my dad said a flat out no. dh offered to do the cooking/cleaning (and I know he would have) but dad still said no. Both my mum and I thought my dad was being a bit mean and have said so to him but I would never dream of asking to go away with some-one I would ALWAYS wait to be invited! In my mind if you ask something like this have to prepare yourself for a no.

Well dh has taken massive offence to this and now doesn't want to go away with us all in the summer claiming he thinks my dad doesn't like him. Ive told him I think he is being a bit ridiculous, they had a great time together last summer (I am one of 3 girls) so think my dad enjoyed having another male around and that my dad probably just likes the set-up he has at the moment with the other guys. Dh is 30 years younger than all of them and this might play a factor too.

I think he's within his rights to feel a little hurt but I think he is being unreasonable to not want to go on holiday as I feel he's putting his feelings about what he 'thinks' my dad feels about him over me and the children wanting him there. He thinks Im being selfish asking him to go, aibu?

doublechocchip That your DH asked and tried to wheedle makes me wonder if your DH had been thinking about this for a little while and essentially forgot that other people werent aware of his internal dialogue. Your DF deviated from the script which your DH had constructed for him.

I have a relative who does this and it is very trying as she plans some massive family event out in her head without checking with anyone first. By the tame she mentions it she has invested in it totally and is massively hurt when other people just say no (having not heard her internal dialogue and so not realising how important the event has become for her).

I've been thinking about this and remembered a time I was put on the spot by my PILs, although not in quite the same way.

When we were first married DH was working away for three months and in that time I was trying to organise our house move to the other end of the country, so I was travelling up and down organising the new house and trying to find a job while still working part-time at my existing job and staying with my parents. It was a very busy time

We were moving about 250 miles away, which put us about 100 miles away from DH's brother and his family. Our SIL was due to give birth and she actually had the baby two days before I was due to take one of my trips down to the new house.

I'd got a lot organised for a short space of time, job interviews, a meeting with the resettlement officer, some decorating planned and a car full of stuff to take down with me.

I had a phone call from FIL. MIL wanted to come with me because she was missing my DH and wanted to spend some time in his house to think about him.

It really wasn't convenient or ideal to have a guest with me, in a half furnished house, while I had so much to do and so much stuff to take with me. It would have meant leaving a lot behind because when I say the car was full I mean it, boxes of stuff on every seat as well as in the boot.

So I said no. So MIL rang up and cried and said how much she was missing my DH and how she needed to come with me to sit in his house and feel closer to him.

I pointed out he had spent only one night of his life in that house, because we only got it the day before he left the country, and so she would probably feel closer to him in her own house, where he grew up and where she wasn't on her own as I would be out a lot for interviews etc or very busy with the jobs I had to do.

So FIL rang me and told me off and said she was really upset and had to come with me and that she would be fine on her own in the house while I did whatever I had to do and would be happy if I just took her for a drive or let her make a family tea one day.

And then I realised what they were really up to. MIL wanted to come with me so that I could either then take her another 100 miles across the country to visit the new baby or so she could make BIL and SIL bring the baby to us.

PILs had been visiting BIL and SIL the week that she went into labour a couple of weeks early. On the day they left, SIL's mother arrived. I think they were planning to get all the family visits over with before the baby was due so they could hold them off for a bit afterwards and have a bit of peace with the baby. MIL was so jealous that SIL's mum was now there for the birth and she wanted to use me as transport and accommodation and papered over it by claiming to be missing DH and 'needing' to be in his house so she could get within visiting range.

I think 100 miles away is still out of range for a quick visit, but in years to come PILs would often leave BIL and SIL after a visit and arrive unexpectedly at our house because they "were passing" (from their 100 mile detour) and felt like calling in. In the time it took them to just pass our house they could have been nearly at their own. They would usually then invite themselves to stay for the weekend and would make it a week if they thought they could get away with it.

So I said no, she could not come with me. And all hell broke loose, crying, shouting, phone calls, visits, weeping, emotional blackmail and they even turned up just before I was due to set off for one last push to try and convince me to take MIL with me.

I still said no.

And remembering all that, I have decided that your father is NBU to say no OP, and your husband was BU for asking and not taking no for an answer.

Wow, NoOne, not sure that's really comparable TBH, but well fucking done for withstanding that level of wheedling :)

Imagine what your life now would be like if you'd given in!

It's probably not quite the same as the OP's husband (to be fair to him) but remembering it helped me see her fathers possible point of view a bit more clearly than I had before.

My PIL's have been doing the same and worse for over ten years now, and I won't see or speak to them anymore.

I'm proud of you, NoOne! Talk about manipulating! They met their match in you.

Your dad probably brings in a bevy of prostitutes and a shed load of cocaine for that break and doesn't want to risk you or his wife finding out - could that be the reason?

Thats what I was going to say!

I think your dad was a bit rude TBH and I can understand why your DH feels put out.

DH must have felt he was part of the family enough to ask, so I can understand why he feels so snubbed and uncomfortable about the summer holiday now.

Given that the february trip is made out to be a 'working' break I dont think its fair to make comparisons of 'would DH want FIL to come on a boys weekend'

He wanted to go and offered to help and your DF said no.

Difficult situation that will be very hard to move forward from.

It depends how he said no I think, did he explain why?

I still think your DH is overreacting, but can understand him feeling a bit hurt.

I understand why your DH feels a bit hurt, as no-one likes to be rejected, but I don't get why he didn't just stop at the first 'no' from your DF? Your DF is perfectly entitled to say no, and was probably embarassed to be put on the spot like that. Perhaps he could have been a little more diplomatic, but frankly I don't think he did anything else wrong. Why should he say yes just to appease your DH? It doesn't mean he dislikes DH, it just means he wants his 3-day-away with his pals, and when asked out of the blue, he's hardly going to make a unilateral decision to change the dynamics of his annual trip just so your husband doesn't feel rejected. To be honest, whether he was blunt or not, DH would still feel rejected. I think he should move on.

Noonesgoing your PIL - ! I find their behaviour utterly bizarre, but you are marvellous to be able to stand up to such manipulation and attempts at emotional blackmail - well done! Does your DH still see them?

First of all, nobody, until now used the word "hate".

You know that makes it sound more childish.

If you tell your children to get a grip when they are hurt by being left out of things by friends, then that's your parenting choice.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to think that a FIL who doesn't welcome you on a working weekend to open up a house you'll be going to later that year doesn't really enjoy your company much.

That might, or might not be, the case.

But the father has given no indication that he "loves" his son in law, just that he doesn't want him around.

Now, maybe he does just want to go on his own with his brother and friend, but he might also just not really like his son in law.

Both are equally likely. It's not like we know how he feels, since he has declined to say.

Either way, a nice family arrangement has now been buggered, probably for good.

If I liked my son in law, I would have gone to some lengths to make that clear when refusing to let him come.

I think the DH is actually more embarrassed than hurt or feeling rejected, and rightly so if that is the case. And if he isn't embarrassed then he really should be. If he genuinely feels that this incident shows that the dad doesn't like him then he has a problem understanding how he is coming across.

But he has no right to jeopardise the family holiday for his wife and DCs because of a situation he brought upon himself. To sulk like that as if his feelings were the centre of the universe, to expect people to like you and therefore be fine with you imposing yourself on a long standing tradition -- there is something missing in this man's picture of How Things Work. This is a man who needs to get over himself.

I think the way it happened was that he wanted to go just to be included ('to tag along'), got turned down, then asked if that was really the case, then when told no again he threw in the offer to help with cleaning and tried the cooking tack -- helping and cooking were afterthoughts, in other words. The whole thing is reminiscent of the school playground, with the DH trying to join a group of boys, close friends who are playing some game they play every day.

OP, was your DH popular in school or was he someone who tended not to be included by the other children? (none of my business really, but he comes across from your description as someone who might have been a bit tone deaf and unable to understand social cues. He seems to covet the closeness without appreciating that the others want it too, and that an important part of it for them is that it is theirs and theirs alone.)

So your dh barely knows two of the three guys going on the trip.

I don't think it was at all unreasonable of DF to refuse to take your dh. He would clearly upset the dynamic of an established event

'Emotionally stupid' expresses it well mo. A lack of emotional intelligence, or lack of a 'feel' for social situations can be a problem with repercussions in someone's career and certainly in their personal life.

I think if the dh felt enough a part of the family to ask, then he should feel flattered that his FIL felt sthat he was too - enough to say no. Which is, after all what you'd say to your own child if they did the same.

wineandroses - yes he does, but not regularly. He's usually quite good about it, although it does upset him and when they are trying to be particularly manipulative he has been known to get in a mood and blame me for the rift, but on the whole he's been quite supportive.

He's grown up with behaviour like that though, and has been told that it will be his fault if his mother has a mental breakdown etc and in his heart I think he still believes that's true. I'd actually like him to go to some counselling sessions as I think they will help him accept that he's not responsible for making them happy or unhappy on this level. He did agree to go once and then decided not to and I think he's scared of confronting his image of them as good parents and admitting that they have been pretty terrible in this respect.

Um, he's the husband and father in the family.

He has every right not to want his family holidays to be spent with people who don't like him, or with whom he feels unwelcome or uncomfortable.

I agree with Gwendoline some time back, I don't know what kind of families you have where it is so weird for a younger family member to be brought in on longstanding traditions.

Wanting to spend time with your wife's older male relatives would not be treated with so much suspicion in my family.

And "emotional stupidity" barely even covers the father's response.

The dad's trip is with two blokes the DH doesn't know. Its not a family trip. The DH is invited to the family trip so I don't see any need for him to get snarky about not being invited to the mates trip. DIY is a total red herring, its a holiday with friends.

Your dh ibu. My sil, who I love, did something similar when dsis came to visit(she lives away) dsis and I had planned a night together - sil outright asked can I come? No invite, we weren't even discussing the night out when she brought it up. My answer was no, we ll bore you, we'll be reminiscencind etc. Since then she has given me the cold shoulder. It makes ne sad because I geniuinly really like her- but I wanted to be alone with dsis.

NoOnesGoing I am sorry for your husband, it must be terribly difficult for him to acknowledge that his parents are so manipulative and entitled. Imagine telling your child that they are responsible for a parent's mental health - talk about bonkers. How lucky then that he met you; someone sane and strong. I hope that you both find a way to leave behind the burden that PIL have placed on DH.

He doesn't know his wife's uncle?

What makes you presume that?

My husband knows all my uncles and my Dad's best mates. He goes to the pub with them when we stay with my parents.

I'd think my Dad was being a right twat if DH said he fancied a pint and my Dad refused to let him go because it would spoil his fun with his friends.

Family means including people.

Wow, pregnant, that was really mean.

You wanted to be alone with your sister so much you destroyed your relationship with your SIL?

Smart thinking, batman.

That's about the same level of emotional intelligence as the Dad who now won't have family holidays with his grandchildren because he alienated his son in law.

What makes me think the dh barely knows the others?

Because op said

"dh has met and liked my uncle but doesnt know him well and has only met dads best mate once"

I'm starting to see why so many people have difficult relationship with in laws if you see your spouse's uncle as a stranger and your SIL as unwanted baggage on a sisters' night out.

Your in laws are FAMILY.

Being nice to them and making the extra effort to make them feel included and wanted in the new family they've joined pays its own dividends.