about lapdancing clubs (yes that old chestnut again)

[whomovedmyblackberry]

Dh is going out with an old friend who has a 'reputation', on Saturday night.
I said 'oh I hope you won't go to any lapdancing clubs'. Dh then got a little defensive and ended up saying that he won't be dictated to, and I cannot impose my morality on him. He did say that it wouldn't be in his plans but he wasn't morally against it and would go if someone else wanted to etc.

I said that in a marriage you have to respect the other person's moral stance and feelings to which he said if he asked me to stop eating meat would I (he's veggie).
I don't think it's really the same.

As background he doesn't show any interest sexually in me, hence me feeling especially shirty about lapdancing clubs.

Actually,.. I may have got that wrong,.. Pole/erotic dancing clubs I think ;)

Buen - My view is based on information from someone who has worked there until v recently, he quit just before Xmas because of the very things I have described. He simply couldnt live with himself being part of that industry. So, yes I do know what I am talking about. He is DHs ex boss but also a friend who he sees often.

Proudnscary Fri 20-Jan-12 08:07:15 said "Funny how it's always the same eejits posters with ill-informed or unpleasant views that rock up on these threads."

Couldn't agree more!

A good friend of mine was a pole dancer for years. Yes it was quite seedy, yes I found quite a lot of the blokes in there pretty repellent (I used to go there to meet her sometimes), and it didn't sit well with me at all that the girls had to wander around the punters with a pint glass getting money before their dance - she quite often felt like lamping some blokes over the head with it.

BUT she certainly wasn't trafficked or pimped, and nor were any of the other girls there - she's have known, as they were all very close. Whether she was exploited is arguable, but her time there supported her while she established a life here (she's Italian) and saved up enough money to pay for the 5 year pt course she wanted to do. Some days she hated it, some days she enjoyed it (bit like most jobs really), they weren't pressured to do private dances if they didn't want to, and the bouncers were all over anyone who overstepped the line. She made some good friends with some of the punters too. Quite a few of the girls had 'boyfriends' from work whom they were exploiting for lots of extra cash (a mutually exploitative relationship), but they certainly weren't expected or forced to do extras. She worked a while at a big name club too and left, not because of any pressure by the management, but because she found the other women too competitive and bitchy.

But no please, all of you with no experience of it; do go on and make your assumptions.

OP it sounds like your DP felt backed into a corner and didn't like being told what to do, maybe mixed with some guilt that he's gone to one before with this friend. I can see that it would be hard for him to say to his laddish mates that he was crying off. If it's something that's really important to you, I can only suggest that you discuss it (without demands) and find out why he would want to go (ie just because they're all going? Or because it's his idea of a good night out?), and find a compromise. I don't think that you can force someone to have the same moral views as you, so it's really about him not upsetting you - you're more likely to get that if you ask rather than demand. It sounds like the no sex thing is at the root of this, so keep talking about that.

Ok CrabbyBigArse - you can stop with your passive aggressive smilies.

You are talking shit and your advice sucks.

So your friend the pole dancer only had to put up with 'repellent' men, a 'seedy' environment' and being humilated by going round with a pint glass begging for scraps from said vile men. That's ok then.

Boomerwang, I have done kinky stuff like you wank on the internet wishing that anyone might ever want to do with you can't even imagine, but I would dump someone who went to a lap-dancing club because it is nonconsensual and exploitative of the women (at least some of them, and I don't give a shit about the ones who think it is 'fun' in some stupid way when they see their colleagues being hurt by it) who 'work' there. OP, there was an article in the Graun a while back by a woman with ASD who was tricked into working in a strip club, you might get your partner to read it if he thinks it's 'harmless fun' or whatever shite men tell themselves to make it ok to support that kind of establishment.

But no please, all of you with no experience of it; do go on and make your assumptions

Crabby people are not 'making assumptions'. It is not 'speculative' as to whether it is an exploitative industry. It is fact.

It is not the 'unlucky few' that fall through the net, that are pressured/co-erced/forced into doing things that they really don't want to do. It is the majority.

My main argument against the DH in this case has been that regardless of how reasonable or unreasonable any partner's request is, they should expect it to be given due consideration and this, in my view, is where the problem lies in this particular scenario. My views on lapdancing aside, my advice would be the same what ever the OP was asking of her husband - even if I thought she was BU - your DH should give your views due consideration because he is supposed to love and respect you.

But your idea that the sex industry is 'not that bad' and can be a good way to make fast cash is pretty naive - i think you are making assumptions based on the anecdotal information of one friend.

Ooh touchy, Proud. And you're accusing me of being passive-aggressive while passive-aggressively twisting my name to be a bit insulting?

Slightly I'm not saying that there aren't some women working in lapdancing clubs who are exploited - I'm sure there are. What I'm saying is that not all women working in lapdancing clubs are trafficked, pimped and exploited. A lot of them have chosen, of their own free will, to work there because the money is good. And yes my experience is anecdotal. That DF wasn't the only stripper I've known, I've known several (and a two dominatrixes too), but that's the only club I've spent a fair bit of time in, so I was relating my (and her) experience to point out that you can't possibly decide that all women who strip are exploited.

I see these absolutist statements so often on MN, and it really irks me. By all means hold your opinions, but the absolute insistence that your view is the only view and anyone who doesn't agree is morally corrupt and wrong is just bullshit.

I do hope that was an ironic passive aggressive grin.

Why don't you read SlightlyJaded's post? She has been arsed to say what I couldn't be arsed to. I think the fact that you used your clearly exploited friend as an example of non-exploitation illustrates the fact that you are rather confused.

He's your husband - it's not right for you to want to dictate what he may or may not do according to your 'beliefs'. Get over yourself.

Um.. eating meat isn't the same as paying to ogle people other than your partner. He shouldn't go, not out of respect for your wishes but out of respect for your marriage. Why would a happily partnered person want to go to a place like that?

I think for me, the real issue would be whether he is just watching from a distance someone on the stage or whether he is the one getting private lapdances.

I've visited these places a couple of times in the past - I certainly can't vouch for them all, but of the establishments I've visited, none of the girls I spoke to were there under duress. Most were either single mums trying to find an easy way to make money for their young families, or were students paying their way through university. All had other options available but chose lap dancing. I would have assumed that such female emancipation would be welcomed on these boards!

At the end of the day, it's a perfectly symbiotic relationship. The girl gets £20 for three minutes 'work' (which she either gets to keep half of, or pays £200 from her total nights takings back to the club depending on the club) whilst the bloke gets two orbs of silicon wafted around his chops and his liver ripped out by a bouncer if he even thinks about touching the lady. Quite who is exploiting who I am not really sure.

p.s. If it makes any difference, it's been a long time since I last set foot in one of these places.

Those of you accusing me of being controlling, surely it's reasonable in a loving relationship to ask the other person to take your views into account?

That's how relationships work - not one person doing whatever they like even if it's disagreeable to the other partner.

It wasn't an ironic passive aggressive grin; I was just laughing at you Proud.

I did reply to Jaded, btw - you can see it just there.

MrPants that's a pretty accurate assessment of my experience of it too.

I reject the logic that says 'oh but I bet these women who moan about the sex trade don't buy fair trade' too: I don't know anybody with any ethics that buys stuff imprinted with "Made In Bangladesh By Child Slaves", and going into a lapdancing bar is similarly unambiguous. You know what it's about, no question. If you go in there, you clearly don't see it as problematic. Lots of people don't. I wouldn't marry any of them though

My point is the number one MN reason for not wanting their DH's to go to these clubs is the 'exploiting women' line...even though they will have no idea whether the club is reputable and does not exploit women or not.

In the same vein, I wonder if these women refuse to buy cheap shoes, handbags, clothes because they assume someone has been exploited. Do they ban their Husbands from buying cheap clothes for the same reason?

I suspect they'll generally take the line that they can't possibly know if anyone has been exploited so they'll buy them anyway.

OP I don't think you're necessarily being controlling, it just sounds like your statement that you didn't want him to go to any lapdancing clubs may have made him feel a bit backed into a corner, and probably guilty. He might not want to go to one, but he might not have the guts to say that in front of his mates, so lacking any moral objection, it's just easier to go along with what the crowd are doing. I think that most people react badly to being dictated to by their partner, and are more likely to reflexively say 'well why are you telling me what to do?', whereas if you'd asked whether it was likely that he'd be going to one, and then said that the thought upsets you and makes you feel rejected and sad (as well as having moral objections to something you view as exploititive), then he'd have less of a reason to knee-jerk argue, iyswim?

Crabby I am not questioning that your friend thinks its an ok way to make fast cash and that she is 'happy' doing that. I am however, certain that your friend is looking at her situation with tunnel vision and that it is easier for her to do her job by believing she is not being exploited. I am also clear that the vast majority of women in these clubs are being exploited. Some more overtly than others.

I am not just making sweeping statements, I know two people who have worked in such clubs. but I don't think it's even worth having the dispute about whether the sex industry is exploitative is it??

OP it is as you say. Regardless of whether you wish is reasonable or not, your DH should be giving it full consideration and taking your feelings/morals/wishes into account.

Completely different scenario, but I have always wanted to go to Istanbul. My DH's father is from a country who has historically been at war with the Turks. People in his family have died. DH doesn't want to go to Turkey. Ever. I think it's ridiculous because you obviously can't judge a whole nation on the actions of a few (probably long since dead) BUT DH is reasonable and intelligent in all other things. He is not ignorant, he is traveled, he is tolerant in every other respect. He wouldn't stop me from going with a friend but I won't go because there are a million other places I'd also like to visit and so I'll pass on Istanbul. It is a bit childish unreasonable, but I accommodate it because I know I wouldn't have to ask him twice not to go to a lapdancing club.

Slightly I don't think that you're making sweeping statements, particularly - you're disagreeing and stating your belief that the sex industry is exploititive, without rubbishing anyone else's opinions. I agree that there are many exploititive factors about the sex industry. I agree that there are many, many people working in the sex industry who are exploited.

But the 'sex industry' covers the whole gamut, doesn't it? From highly paid escorts who don't have sex, through empowered strippers, porn actresses, doms or prostitutes, who have chosen their job and are happy with it, through all the mid range and down to women to are in the industry to fund their drug addictions, because they can't see any other option open to them, or because they are being forced to do so due to trafficking or pimping. Saying the entire sex industry is exploititive is like saying all factory work is exploititive; right from your UK £10ph 8hr days, down to your 1p ph 12hr days child sweatshops. I just don't like absolutist statements - it doesn't leave any room for the variety of people's experiences.

One last thing (as I feel the OP's thread has been a bit hijacked here) - my DF is no longer stripping - it was a means to an end. She has now qualified as a therapist, and will no doubt bring the richness of her experience to benefit her clients.

If highly paid escorts "don't have sex" then they are not a part of the sex industry, surely

they would be called "dinner companion who wears a pretty frock" or summat

This is it LeQueen I'm not knocking anyone's 'moral values', I just wonder how many conveniently apply them to the adult entertainment industry because they don't want their DH's going to these places.

There's nothing wrong with standing up and saying "I'm as jealous as hell", if in fact they are.

LeQueen you can of course believe what you like, but I do not buy there were no "extras" involved in your friend's highly paid activities