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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

913 replies

foglike · 18/01/2012 11:30

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

OP posts:
Rational · 19/01/2012 21:14

"I was interested to see that it isn't considered to be murder if a baby is killed after this time if the mother was suffering PND."

I would think she would be treated the same as anyone else acting with diminished responsibility. Is that not the right thing to do?

BadDayAtTheOrifice · 19/01/2012 21:15

Its classed as infanticide.

Jux · 19/01/2012 21:36

I don't think ANY posts should be pulled, not even Charleneanna's. I think it's really important for people to see for themselves the depths to which some of these pro-life type organizations and people will stoop. And while bupcake's comment may have been against the guidelines, it was entirely justified. There have to be exceptions sometimes.

Rational · 19/01/2012 21:40

While I think what Charleneanna said was absolute bollocks and basically moronic I will defend her right to say it. One of the things I hate about MN is the removal of posts because they're controversial. Free speech should not be hindered. That's not to say we shouldn't exercise our free speech by letting her know she's talking shite!

I agree Jux, let her be the thin edge of the pro-life wedge for all to see.

bumbleymummy · 19/01/2012 21:48

YEs, there are always extremists on both sides of the argument but it is not fair or accurate to consider their opinion to be representative of an entire group/organisation.

Moominsarescary · 19/01/2012 21:49

charleneanna yes it would have been much kinder if I'd left my baby to die trapped in my cervix, you do talk crap

Rational · 19/01/2012 21:56

"YEs, there are always extremists on both sides of the argument but it is not fair or accurate to consider their opinion to be representative of an entire group/organisation."

Who did that?

BupcakesandCuntWorms · 19/01/2012 22:02

I agree with Jux and Rational. Leave her comments up. So that we all know to avoid her like a wart-encrusted cock in the future.

entropygirl · 19/01/2012 22:05

Im not sure there is a discussion to be had about posts....surely MNHQ won't remove charle's posts because they dont break the rules....but bups should go because it does. The rules aren't about offence (unless it is racism sexism etc) but about personal attacks.

entropygirl · 19/01/2012 22:08

rational oh certainly killing a baby while suffering PND should not be classed as murder!

mind you I tend to believe that all murder is due to mental illness of one form or another - I don't really believe in the evil thing.....(but that was a whole separate thread....).

Jux · 19/01/2012 22:18

I would rather see what lunacy people spout, and make,up my own mind about it. I don't think MN should be censo

Jux · 19/01/2012 22:19

Ignore the above post, pressed post instead of just leaving the thread Blush, sorry.

Rational · 19/01/2012 22:21

Nothing to be sorry about, you were right.

timetosmile · 19/01/2012 22:22

Aren't we straying off the topic a little?

There seem to be two strands to the more measured debate here -

whether these midwives in particular were justified in their refusal of specific supervisory duties

and

whether clinical nhs staff have/should be allowed to object to participating in termination procedures in the grounds of their own moral conscience.

I'm not up to speed with the details of the first question, but as a doctor who has worked in both gynaecology and general practice, the GMC porition is very clear, that medical staff have a longstanding optional opt-out clause when it comes to performing, or as a GP, referring for, and abortion.

I was always clear at interview that I would not participate/refer for abortion, and that was accepted...had employers had a problem then I suspect someone else would have got the job!

I have several patients who, after discussion with me as their GP, requested seeing another GP to refer them (which was always done within an hour, often sooner) or self-referred, which is increasingly common throughout the UK, I think. They have opted to come back to see me for their follow up care, as, (I hope) the way I dealt with their consultation did not denigrate them, or judge their moral compass, and we have maintained good longstanding patient-doctor relationships.

bemybebe · 19/01/2012 22:27

Rational, Bups, 1000% with you.

Rational · 19/01/2012 22:30

"rational oh certainly killing a baby while suffering PND should not be classed as murder!"

Good, we agree on something then, lol.

charleneanna · 19/01/2012 22:30

i just dont see how any female with feelings can kill her unborn baby shes obviously a cold hearted women with no feelings at all

PeanutButterCupCake · 19/01/2012 22:31

The only person who mentioned "loose morals" is you rational

bemybebe · 19/01/2012 22:33

"i just dont see how any female with feelings can kill her unborn baby shes obviously a cold hearted women with no feelings at all"

a female who was raped by 3 strangers in a dark alley
me
no problem at all

Oakmaiden · 19/01/2012 22:35

I haven't read the whoel thread, so this point may have been made - but when I trained as a midwife it was made clear to us that caring for women who had/were having terminations would be part of the job and that if we could not in conscience carry out that part of the job then we should not be training as midwives.

charleneanna · 19/01/2012 22:36

alsoif a women was raped whichyes is horrific its still not the babies fault and loads of parents desperate to adopt so why kill the baby when he/she is not responsable for what happened to you

bemybebe · 19/01/2012 22:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

bemybebe · 19/01/2012 22:39

because i don't believe abortion is a murder and law agrees with me

Rational · 19/01/2012 22:39

"i just dont see how any female with feelings can kill her unborn baby shes obviously a cold hearted women with no feelings at all"

Do you even care that your including me in that? And I'm the cold hearted woman with no feelings? Lol, you really are something....

"The only person who mentioned "loose morals" is you rational"

Ok, let me try to explain it another way. You appear to think that the midwives in question have a right to their belief that abortion is immoral. That is after all the reason they give for not wanting to participate in the care of the women. The women who are choosing to abort do not hold that belief, their morals are loose in this area. A person who believes that it is immoral to have an abortion is telling the person who has the abortion that they have a lower standard of morals, looser morals.

Better?

charleneanna · 19/01/2012 22:40

why bemybebe just because i dont beleive in murder