To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

"YABVU they don't beleive in removing life- would you want to be forced to witness chickens being minced alive if you worked in McDonalds?"

Why is there no facepalm smiley on here. FFS.

BadDay (brilliant name btw) I know, there isn't any exact analogy, I was just thinking of the closest thing. And I think they get close enough for the analogy to have some leverage.

It's weird - I know you'll disagree, and fine - but actually till reading this thread I hadn't realised how strongly I felt about this. I think before I would've said that HCP should be excused termination duties on conscientious grounds, but the more I think about it, the harder I find it to justify that on professional grounds.

Anyhow, interesting debate.

myTHINyear that is the worst argument I've ever heard!

Rational, then why not choose one of those many other posts instead of mine to prove your point?

WTAF has mincing a chicken got to do with anything? Who the hell minces a chicken alive anyway? What on EARTH are you talking about? Just stick to the facts without trying to bring up stupid analogies.

So Catholics don't believe in removing life. They shouldn't be nurses if their beliefs are THAT strong that they don't look after a woman who's had an abortion. No one is asking them to perform an abortion, they are asking them to look after a woman who is about to/has had one.

They just seem massively judgemental to me, like they want nothing to do with "fallen" women. What a crock of shit.

I know thats the OP, but discussion on the thread has involved more than that.

bumble (am leaving after this, not running but won't be able to respond to any reply you make)

I don't agree. I get that it is a small part of the MW's job but it is a big deal for the woman involved and, yes, although I know many will find it extreme, I think if you aren't prepared to do that you shouldn't be a MW. I mean, someone with those interests might find a job as another kind of HCP that didn't involve dealing with abortions - neonatal nurse, whatever. But I do think not being willing to do all of a job does mean you shouldn't do any of it.

"Rational, then why not choose one of those many other posts instead of mine to prove your point?"

Because the post you made that I originally responded to didn't make it clear that this wasn't your feeling. Your post certainly made a distinction between women who have miscarriages and women who have abortions. Shouldn't they both have professional care?

Moomins, "may not survive" is a bit of a gamble to take. Babies can and do survive at 22 weeks with or without medical conditions. There was a case in the the UK where a baby with Downs Syndrome survived for several hours after he/she (can't remember if it was a boy or girl) was aborted at 22 weeks much to the parents' distress.

They WILL both get professional care Rational but that wasn't your original post - you were talking about women being judged for having an abortion but not a miscarriage. I was pointing out that the woman has no choice about whether or not she miscarries so what could she be judged on? Deciding to terminate a pregnancy is a conscious decision that some people will judge.

Everyone's different from the information given to me by my consultant many women who induce due to medical reasons don't want to have the injection into the heart, these are families who wanted the baby but due to medical reasons have decided to end the pg, alot of us are quite prepared that our babys may be born alive and might live for a while after birth

I have incompetant cervix and when my baby became stuck in the cervix as it started to shut back up after my waters broke I agreed to induction. I wouldn't have agreed to stop his heart. You are made aware of what might happen when you make the decision.

What should she be judged on, in your opinion?

You didn't say she shouldn't be judged.

A woman often has no choice whether she aborts or not.

I didn't say that she should/shouldn't be judged. My opinion about an individual woman's choice to abort in whatever her circumstances is not relevant. I was just pointing out that a decision can potentially be judged (we make judgements about other people's choices every day) but how can you even judge something over which someone has no control?

I think it's quite sad that you think a woman has no choice other than to abort. Surely the whole argument is about it being a woman's choice...

I judge neither, that was my point. I also do not accept anyone else's 'right' to judge. This is something you appear to have a problem with.

You either feel a woman should not be judged for her choice to abort or you feel it's ok to. It is entirely relevant to the point we're arguing.

Oh my goodness, could you actually miss my point more? I am not talking about the rights and wrongs of judging someone for something just wondering why ANYONE would judge someone who has had a miscarriage - they don't have any control over it! It's just a really poor thing to compare to.

I am not saying that it is right to judge someone for having an abortion but it is possible to judge someone because it is a conscious decision that they have made. Do you understand the point I'm making? It has nothing to do with anyone's personal opinion- its to do with your comparison of miscarriage and abortion!

I never made the original comparison but don't let that get in the way of hitting me with it.

"...wondering why ANYONE would judge someone who has had a miscarriage"

And my point is, that you are missing by accusing me of missing yours is that I wonder why anyone would judge a woman who has an abortion. To me, judging someone who has had an abortion is as wrong as judging someone who has had a miscarriage. Get it now?

You're outrage that the two can be compared speaks volumes.

Oops sorry! Wrong thread!

Wow, I could really use that face palm emoticon now...

Rational: "Yes, we all know what that difference is don't we? Women who have miscarriages aren't perceived by the super-judgmental to be women with loose morals killing their babies."

There is your original comparison. People having miscarriages v people who have abortions. Poor comparison and quite tasteless really especially the mention of 'loose morals' which I don't think anyone else had mentioned at all.

No, I don't think they can be compared - one involves a woman making a CHOICE and the other does not. The rights and wrongs of judging it does not come into it. They are two very different things.

No, they're not. Both involve women going though, whether spontaneously or medically induced, the termination of their pregnancy. Both are cared for by midwifes.

One receives sympathy from society as a whole, the other will receive moral judgement from a sizable portion of society.

You say "the mention of 'loose morals' which I don't think anyone else had mentioned at all", the thread is full of people agreeing that these midwives had the right to conscientiously object as they felt that abortion was morally wrong. They are, albeit indirectly, saying that these women have loose morals.

Thats a huge assumption to make Rational. They just don't want to be involved with what they see as ending a life.

Which part did I assume?

Then they should get a new job. And round and round we go......

So if they don't want to be involved with what they see as ending a life, why are they not making a fuss about tending women who have miscarriages?

Yes, both have the same end result but that does not make them the same at all. It's like saying death and euthanasia are the same thing and should be thought of the same way. There is a big difference between a sudden and unexpected death and a planned assisted suicide.

I'm pretty sure we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. The majority of people can understand the need for an 'opt out' clause on performing/assisting in abortions so your own opinion that all Catholics should leave/not enter the medical profession does not really matter...thankfully!

a midwife 99% of the time brings babies into the world and doesnt kill them sono they shouldnt be expected to have anything to do with murdering an unbornchild abortion is murder