To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

If it's any consolation many on this thread actually think your view is the positive one rational.

But you can't argue against a book that was written to control people in the dark ages and still continues to over ride empathy for fellow human beings.

Professionalism also includes delegating work that you feel unable to do to the best of your ability that may be detrimental to your patient.

Rational, you are the one referring to 'killing babies', please note my use of the quotation marks in response to your post.

BadDayAtTheOrifice they refused to delegate even.

In fact they just said that even though they were in charge of the staff on the ward they wanted to do nothing.

So the straw man arguments begin...sigh...

How is it a straw argument that they refused to even delegate?

It's central to the thread isn't it?

Also add onto that their political affiliations and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together.

Sorry fog, that last post wasn't in response to yours - just those accusing people of using 'baby killing' when they are the ones using it to be emotive!

Apologies for jumping the gun bumbley

Although I think you're being a bit rude accusing people who can see the midwives' point of view of being irrational and lacking in empathy...

Oops - unfortunate x-post! Do you want your flowers back? :)

I agree in this case, they took it too far. They should not have refused. A lot of the arguement on this thread has centred around whether midwives in general should be allowed to 'opt out' of direct termination care. I think they should be able if they wish.

I still jumped in and you can keep the flowers I was wrong to bite at you without thinking..

But.

If you think the midwives religious views and their political agenda don't lack empathy then I completely disagree with you.

This thread is really interesting and I'm glad you started it fog.

I have to say I am really opposed to the idea of conscientious objection re: abortions. Even being involved in them. I think it enshrines in law an idea that abortions are potentially immoral. In a country where they are legal and every woman's right, I think that is wrong.

I also think it's hugely misleading to say that 'just as it is a woman's right to access abortion, so it is a MW's/ dr's right not to want to be involved'.

Well, no. Getting pregnant is kind of an occupational hazard of being a sexually active straight woman (well, for 99% of us, anyway!). Contraception can fail; a woman who has any kind of straight sex is probaby at some risk of getting pg.

It is not comparable to making a deliberate, considered choice to train as a HCP. If you train as a HCP in the UK and wish to work in the NHS, you know from day 1 that you are going to work for an organisation which provides abortion. You should sign up to that, or ship out.

And the woman's ethical scruples are not comparable to the HCP's. The woman is choosing to have an abortion done to herself. It is her choice. The HCPs are not being asked to get involved in any personal moral dilemma. They are being asked to assist someone else with an ethical choice which she has a right to make.

So I don't think it matters whether they agree with it. It is part of their job, I think they should be made to do it or they should not work for the NHS. I know that will seem extreme to some, but I think it is comparable to, say, a prison guard who didn't believe in capital punishment going to work in a gaol in Texas. You know what, it's part of what goes on, so if you don't like it, don't join up.

btw, I fully respect people's scruples about abortion, but I think they should either detach in their professional lives and realise that not everyone can share their beliefs or not work with vulnerable people.

"Rational, you are the one referring to 'killing babies', please note my use of the quotation marks in response to your post."

Please have a look back through the thread and see how many posters have actually used the term and meant it. I have just been stressing that while this misinterpretation of the foetus as a baby continues there is no hope of stopping the irrationality that a discussion around abortion always espouses. It's just wrong, it's feotus, not baby. That's the point I have been endeavoring to make.

The prison guard isn't executing the prisoners or dealing with their bodies afterwards though.

"If it's any consolation many on this thread actually think your view is the positive one rational."

Thanks, I'm just on the side of women and their right to choose what happens to their own body.

I know that some can be born alive and live for a while, I was warned that it might happen with my son. Your talking about induction due to medical conditions under 23 weeks when the foetus is unlikely to survive the birth process and will not survive as they are too premature

They must have been in the profession as midwives for what, 25 years? and, its only just become an issue? Theres more to this. I suspect theyve had enough and want early retirement with the pay out. Very handy to go off sick until that day.

You seem to be missing the point that the midwives wont even delegate which is what the thread is about BDATO.

YABVU they don't beleive in removing life- would you want to be forced to witness chickens being minced alive if you worked in McDonalds?

Not really RP - there are plenty of other prisons not associated with capital punishment that they could work for, not really the case for HCPs.(unless they're happy to move to NI) A bit extreme to rule out an entire career area for a certain religion IMO.Particularly when abortion services make up sch a small part of it.

agree this is an interesting topic.

My auntie went to the local GP to ask for a morning after pill. Doctor on duty was muslim and refused. He asked her to wait, and in the end she ended up driving to a different doctors, which took ages to get medical records across etc. The pill did not work and she ended up having a much more serious abortion procedure, rather than simply the pill. Every hour is crucial in situations like this and his moral and religioius points should not have interfeered with the care she was legally entitled to. There is a chance that if she was given her perscription as soon as she asked, she would of been saved much trauma. She did not go ahead to press charges since she wanted the whole abortion procedure forgotten about. (This was a long time ago, before you could getit from a pharmacy)

In a similar situation, if I was booked in for a termination for example, if only catholic midwives were on duty, would my procedure be halted for their benefit? The pregnancy should then continue making the procedure even worse for the patient? You can't pick and choose what work you want to do.

It is such a small part of the job though. Thankfully these terminations are a rare event on a labour ward most midwives won't be required to do it very often.

They are not being forced to witness a procedure.

They just wont delegate even though it's their job to supervise staff.

Mcdonalds has very little to do with anything.