To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

bumbley, the women who have terminations on a labour ward will be undergoing a medically induced abortion at 16 weeks or more.

"What I would like to know is how these two women square up being paid by an organisation that performs abortion" - good point. I wouldn't knowingly work for an employer that was involved in arms trading (I ought to be safe in the NHS but once we're privatised who knows?)

rooksby,
Because a) there morals only come into play when they can use them against other people, not themselves, and b)if they did not work for the NHS they would nto be a position to try to make it difficult for women to get abortions. I do know people who have become medical professionals because their religious group told them it was their duty to try to stop immoral practices such as abortion, premarital sex etc, and a medicla professional is in a very good position to abuse their position to acheive this end by refusing terminations, making it unpleasent for peopel who have them, refusing contraceptives etc. A GP a couple of years ago was in the dailymail claiming she wanted those seekign a termination to come to her so she coudl use her position to prevent the termination by talkign them out of it (quoting the bible in some cases). Oddly she did not get struck off unlike the dentist I mentioned up thread.

bumbly they sometimes do that between 16 -20 in theatre under ga, not in the labour ward

YABVU

I am pro choice, how could i be pro choice but insist that others have no choice and are forced to do something they feel is very wrong and goes against everything they beleive in

I am pro-choice too....pro having the choice of not going into a profession which puts you in conflict with your moral position....

YANBU.

If you choose to work in a medical profession you take a vow to look after your patients and your personal views can't be let to affect how you do your job.

Moomins, Marie stopes and BPAS both do it under GA using dilation and evacuation according to their websites. The NHS appears to offer a choice of that method or the medically induced one according to their website I'm surprised that the second option is still offered tbh because I think there was an article recently about some of the aborted foetuses being born aliive which obviously creates a bit of an ethical dilemma.

In any case, I'm sure both would be disturbing to assist if you are against abortion and I don't think it is fair or right to force anyone to attend/assist just because it is their job (as some people have suggested) Just as I don't think a doctor should be forced into assisting someone to die if they disagree with euthanasia.

there are many doctors and mw's that are catholic and they will be aware that they have this option should they all resign now we woudl lose many fantastic medical professionals if that were to happen

we have to allow peoples religious beliefs to be taken into account so they can do the job the best they can, they often they provide far more than just medical care and they need to be able to do this with honestly we are talking about people?s emotions and beliefs not their tax returns, it could be hugely detrimental emotionally to a patient to have a doctor/mw carry out a procedure they strongly were against

They inject the heart and don't induce until after the foetus has died to make sure they are not born alive, alot of the time the foetus isn't strong enough to survive labour anyway.

Some trusts only offer termination under ga in special circumstances as in some cases it can cause problems in future pg such as mc and ic

Mw don't have to be envolved in terminations, it is the one thing they can opt out of due to ethical or religious reasons, however that doesn't mean they should withhold aftercare if noone else is available

Moomins - are you trying to say that aborted foetuses are never born alive? I can post links to some pretty shocking articles if you like. It does happen, more frequently than people would like to believe. There was a very sad one in Italy in2010 where a baby boy survived for 2 days after being aborted at 22 weeks.

Many of the late terminations performed in the NHS are for foetuses with severe abnormalities like anencephaly that are incompatible with life. Taking these pregnancies to term helps no-one and refusing to help these women is extremely uncompassionate.

SPUC are behind these women. They are one of the most morally bankrupt organizations I have ever had the misfortune to have had dealings with. Even Murdoch pales into insignificance beside them. Vile vile vile.

SPUC has been in touch with the midwives over the long course of the grievance procedure. We would emphasise that there is no suggestion that these midwives had ever treated any woman unkindly, despite what some pro-abortion groups might say about pro-life health care staff. The petitioners' approach is one of professional and ethical integrity. SPUC Pro-life is supporting the midwives' stance and is underwriting their legal costs."

link

bum
In the Italian case, the fetus was from a spontaneous abortion not a termination, that is why he was put in the chapel of rest which is where the priest found he was still alive. A spontaneous abortion is the proper name for a miscarriage and is natural, but certain types like to mislead and use the term abortion for these sort of miscarriages to make people think that the fetus was born alive after a termination.

Also a medical professionals first duty is to their patient, and as no abortion is allowed in the UK unless it is in the patient's best interest the medical professionals are refusing to act in their patients best interests and in some cases they will be putting their patient's life in danger.

freud,
But medical staff could sue this for anything like we aid before, i.e refusing to give car crash victims blood transfusions. If you do not believe that part of your job is right then you should not take that job. At the moment in Britain medical schools are hugely oversubscribed so we can afford for those who will refuse to put their patient's interests first in the name of their own opinions and beliefs to not go to medical school. There are thousands of muslim medical professionals, but can you imagine them being allowed to make women wear headscarves if they treated them - in fact a muslim dentist was struck off for doing just this even though it did not put his patient in danger unlike refusing terminations.

These midwives DO have an agenda and a political one at that...i'm shocked.

I would think refusing someone treatment, and trying to make it difficult for others to treat them is a bit more unkind. It would serve them right if the women started sueing the medical staff for religious and sexual discrimnation

"Redrosette, there's a bit of a difference between a miscarriage and an abortion."

Yes, we all know what that difference is don't we? Women who have miscarriages aren't perceived by the super-judgmental to be women with loose morals killing their babies.

Um, yes rational, because they didn't have any control over their miscarriage did they? They didn't "kill" their baby, their baby died.

Kelly2000, this was the one I was talking about.

"The mother, pregnant for the first time, had opted for an abortion after prenatal scans suggested that her baby was disabled.
However, the infant survived the procedure, carried out on Saturday in the Rossano Calabro hospital, and was left by doctors to die.
He was discovered alive the following day ? some 20 hours after the operation ? by Father Antonio Martello, the hospital chaplain, who had gone to pray beside his body.
He found that the baby, wrapped in a sheet with his umbilical cord still attached, was moving and breathing."

what if termination becomes legal for women in ireland, now the vast majority of medical staff will be catholic this will have to be an option there and many may decide to ignore their religious beliefs and others will not but i have enough faith to believe that those who choose not be involved will do so discreetly

i am well aware for some there is a political agenda but not for all, and if they are making patients aware of this then that is a separate issue

in some professionals it is vital a person is aware of their limitations (like therapy) in order to be able to give the best care possible, this does not mean it is ok for a mw to tell a women she is wrong so she will not care for her but it is her responsibility to pass on the care to someone who has no issues with what the women has chosen (or been advised) to do. as i have said before i am pro choice i may not respect their point of view or agree with it but i have to respect that is their belief and not impose what i think is right on them and for them to be forced to assist in something they feel is very wrong would be detrimental to all involved

"Um, yes rational, because they didn't have any control over their miscarriage did they? They didn't "kill" their baby, their baby died."

I rest my case.

Are we still thinking in terms of "Killing babies"

With women using terms like that what chance is there for the govt/doctors and organisations that are extreme anti-abortion to follow through on a womans right to have a termination or at least care before and after a termination?

Surely, if you found yourself in the position of having a late termination, you would want to have a carer that was happy and willing to do so?

Unfortunately with such an emotive topic you will have irrationality, therefore abortion will always be associated with 'killing babies'.

I can't even be arsed correcting it and posting 'foetus' anymore, pissing in the wind springs to mind.

"BadDayAtTheOrifice"

I would expect care and for her/him to keep their personal opinions to themselves. It's called professionalism.