To expect a midwife to carry out termination duties?

[foglike]

To think a midwife has to carry out these duties and not claim religious discrimination because she's catholic?

bbc link

"In your opinion, they are 'wrong'. In 'their' opinion, you are wrong. Legally, it may not be recognised as a life yet, but morally, opinions and beliefs may differ from your own....."

Well thank goodness we're going along with the opinions of the learned medical profession and not those who get their opinions from a bronze age book of myths. (Or a few MNers with no medical experience whatsoever for that matter)

Actually, if a woman goes to her GP and requests a termination, if the GP refuses to refer them and says they'll need to ask someone else, it's quite clear the GP wanted nothing to do with it.

"Ultimately a patient probably wouldn't know."
"It wouldn't be obvious at all, the patient would have no idea."

And how many weeks does that add to the process, especially if you're a patient at a small surgery or a surgery which is packed with thousands of patients like my inner-London one? Or if they all decide they don't fancy it much? Or is the idea that silly women will change their minds if it's all put off till more complicated?

"'moral concious'"

I believe you mean moral conscience.

I was referring to patients on a ward.

When talking about a GP, yes you're probably correct that no matter how tactfully phrased it might be quite obvious.

We are talking about midwives conscientiously objecting here, not GPs.

Rational

You still don't understand why a midwife might find difficulty in initiating termination of a preganacy?

FYI BadDay - BPAS Website

"This treatment is usually performed between 15 to 24 weeks of pregnancy.
Dilatation and Evacuation is carried out under general anaesthetic (asleep).
A doctor will remove the pregnancy using narrow forceps passed through the neck of the womb and gentle suction.
It requires one visit to the clinic, usually returning home the same day for abortions up to 20 weeks.
If the pregnancy is over 20 weeks more than one visit may be required or an overnight stay."

ooh picky. Yes, thats what i meant.

Bumbley, this doesn't happen at my trust!

ok what if we took this case and removed the fact the procedure that the midwives are objecting to is abortion/termination.

So would I think think they were unreasonable in refusing to treat a patient that has a condition/lifestyle/culture/belief that is contradictory to their own personal belief. Yes I would. Because they are failing in a duty of care to treat all patients equally and without prejudice - which is now a fundamental part of law in the UK. So that would make Rationals points valid about treating patients regardless of their background/history etc

BUT it is the termination/ending of life that makes this slightly different and muddies the arguement. I can understand why they find it so difficult but also I can see the NHS trusts point of view that they are employed/contracted to fufill a role and they are not doing that by refusing to do this.

Anything over 14 weeks is a medical, not a surgical procedure within my trust.

Pranma - I think we kind of agree then. Apologies if I misunderstood you.

If you are catholic then abortion is the killing of a human being.
The fact that you can do this up to 24 weeks in the uk means some clinical staff have to be involved in these procedures whatever their ethical position.
Of course you should be excused from being involved if you think it is killing. The other examples do not compare.
My aunt was excused from being involved in terminations in the 80 s when a woman came in for her 4 th late abortion. I will not go into the details of what used to be done back then When a baby was aborted and came out still alive but suffice to say she was so traumatized by it that she simply could no longer be involved. She is not a catholic. I there is no other job where you are quoted to be involved in what many see as the killing of a baby so comparisons are misguided.

The article is about midwives but there are interesting related points to be made about all other medical staff who work in this area.

"We are talking about midwives conscientiously objecting here, not GPs."

Terminations after 12 weeks are done if a reason can be given that to carry on with the pg will be harmful to the mother physically or mentally or if the child has a disability, terminations post 19 weeks are not performed under ga

I am pro choice but the only difference between a feotus and a baby is that a baby is born alive and a feotus never drew breath, I lost a foetus!!! At 20 weeks, he was a baby, he looked like a baby, actually he looked exactly like his brother who was born at 32 weeks,
He was 11 inch long, his brother was 13

Try and convince yourself if you want that they arnt babys, they are and anyone going through it trying to pretend they arnt are fooling themselfs

"You still don't understand why a midwife might find difficulty in initiating termination of a preganacy?"

No, I don't. Sorry if that's not the answer you wanted to hear but there you go.

The life and rights of the woman will always be forefront in my mind. I believe it should be so for the people who are supposed to be providing her care.

Clearly some do object, but in that case they shouldn't be in the job where this may be necessary.

"You still don't understand why a midwife might find difficulty in initiating termination of a preganacy?"

"If you are catholic then abortion is the killing of a human being."

Then catholics shouldn't have abortions, nor should they opt for a career where they will be expected to provide care for people who do not hold this view.

badday I think some people are determined to only see their own point
My opinions also don't come from"a bronze aged book off myths or MN"

" I think some people are determined to only see their own point "

That is the nature of Abortion Debate I'm afraid. I'm still going with the opinions of the medical profession though.

Jester when I posted that "ultimately a patient wouldnt know" that was in the context of a ward based situation and not a face to face consultation with a GP when that would be obvious yes.

Badday, according to most of the websites a 'medical' abortion is the early abortion using the abortion pill and from about 9 weeks they are early surgical/surgical/later surgical abortions.

Moomins - check out the BPAS link I posted. Both BPAS and Marie Stopes carry out later surgical abortions under GA.

So, if there's a brilliant midwife who gives excellent care and has good outcomes, she should give up her job becase once in a blue moon, theres a woman having a late termination on delivery suite and she doen't want to look after her, but someone, equally deserving, instead? Yeah, best get rid, she's obviously not worth her job?
She must be crap, she won't even terminate a pregnancy

'I'm still going with the opinions of the medical professional though'

Some of those medical professionals don't agree with abortions on moral grounds though.

WWJD? He would be compassionate and look after these women that needed after care and hand holding and pain relief because it would be the christian and humanitarian thing to do. And I write as an athiest!

However, the law and ethics are two entirely different things. Just because something is lawful does not make it ethical. Look at the german war crimes - many doctors were involved with torture and infantacide. Not a single one of us would object to them being objectors of conscience.

If in 2075, the population of the UK became such that only 10% of people were under the age of 65 and tax payers and a law was introduced to kill the older sections of society, do you not think it would be a doctor's right to refuse to do so?

My own views on the subject changed when I was faced with the situation. I had always thought that you should get on with the job and had no time for medical staff that refused to refer people for terminations. However, when I counselled and referred someone for a termination at 23+ weeks because "she changed her mind about it" and I was about 20 weeks pregnant with my first child, I lost sleep over it for days. I could feel my own child moving inside me and felt I had been partly responsible for something I did not agree with at this gestation.

You cannot force staff to be involved with certain medical procedures and it's very different from giving blood or treating a homosexual if you are a strict religious zealot. Ending life ( which is how many people see it) is one of those procedures.

However, refusing to co-operate with after care and basic compassion is misguided, callous and not very christian IMO.