To think that the West is seriously fucked up on the bosom front?

[Hullygully]

Bags of poison sewn into our infant feeding parts.

How fucked up is that?

It's difficult isn't it? There's a fine line, IMO, between doing things that make us feel better about ourselves - nice clothes, make-up, hair/nails, etc - and things that make us feel more attractive to men.

I think we would all be lying if we said that we did any/all of the above things just for ourselves - we do them to make ourselves more attractive. And by implication, that is to become attractive to the opposite sex.

It seems to me, though, that we have an increasingly skewed idea of what 'attractive' means. And I can't help but think that it is an increasingly sexualised culture (daily media through to day-to-day acceptance/availability of pornography - lapdancing/strip clubs on the high street, for example) that is doing this.

So women have to have huge breasts, have all their pubic hair removed and even consider having labial surgery so that it looks 'right'.

It's terribly sad. It's also pushing us towards trying to create something that is massively defined by what a male-based society seems to want.

Where, in all of this, is what we - as women - think is acceptable? Why are we prepared to go through all that pain? The pain of a Brazilian wax is nothing compared to what must the pain of breast and/or labial surgery.

I don't condemn the women who are doing this, but I absolutely condemn the fact that our society is moving in this direction, and that it seems to be increasingly the norm.

I have very small breasts, size AAA. Obviously, I would prefer them to be larger, but I would not have surgery to improve my figure.

I may well end up on the governments database of implanted medical devices - The plan is to cover all implants, not just cosmetic ones. I have a mechanical heart valve and a pacemaker. Maybe it is because I have had serious health problems, but I cannot understand how a healthy young woman would put herself at risk. Although the specific dangers associated with PIP implants have only recently come to light, the risks of silicon implants have been long documented.

I am a little about comments upthread about Kiera Knightley and Billie Piper being small. To me, they are larger than average! Kiera Knightley was positively popping out of her dress in Pirates of the Caribbean.

Would never have cosmetic surgery.

Remember watching a documentary about botched procedures with my dad when I was about 15 and him saying 'Never have anything like that done, these are dangerous procedures purely for vanity, so promise me you won't, no matter how desperate you get'!!!!

Hmmph. I think he meant well :o

Agree about changing shape and size. Was an A cup well into my mid-late 20s then they grew a bit. I was a little overweight before my first pregnancy and a 36C. Saggy already, since I have lousy collagen and was in my mid 30s. They grew with each pregnancy and while I was EBF DS2 I was a 36E for a short while. DS2 is pushing 6, now and I'm in my 40s and down to a 34D - still much bigger than the poached eggs I had in my 20s. I definitely need a good bra, now, though, or else I'd trip over them :o (DH loves them, though, sagginess and all)

As someone who had 30AA breasts right up until the age of 34 (when they grew naturally bigger)

I can tell you that I had very little in the way of comments from boys/men.

All the negative, nasty, patronising 'Ahh bless' comments came from other girls/women.

It's weird when you look back at old films or videos. Women who were lusted after in their day for being beautiful and/or voluptuous were rarely big-breasted (Debbie Harry, Lindsay Wagner, Barbara Windsor. The definition of desirable breasts is definitely changing (has already changed?)

I'm sneering at a culture which fetishes breasts and youth and appearance, so that some mothers feel the need to subject their bodies to surgery in order to have good self esteem.

We can sneer, but we - and especially our daughters - are having to negotiate this culture day by day, and its very hard to resists the (commercial) messages as they are being sent out by all the role models society watches.

Therefore there needs to be a counter argument, IMO based around:

(i) Health - that this is not necessarily a good idea. The NHS bailing out these mistakes is bad in so many ways.

(ii) Media being fordced back to displaying reality - ie forcing them to reperesent real women (can it be leagl under the tarde description act that all women in Ads are plastic and airbrushed?)

(iii) Disgust - like with furs.

Sorry that should be Lindsay Wagner.

Exactly Cassette

I've found the majority of males have neither noticed or cared

The majority of females however were a whole different ball game

Cassette - not really, did you look at that link? And very floppy, don't know if those would be on display today. She's quite petite of course which I guess makes them look a bit bigger.

Cassette, there is a huge risk in surgical intervention that simply isn't present in the application of mascara. That is the essential point. It is not just a spectrum.

Cancer got both of my breasts when I was 43.

I go flat most of the time but occasionally I wear silicone prostheses in my bra - they weigh a sodding ton and I can't wait to get the buggers off at the end of the day.
The thought of slicing a healthy young breast open and inserting something similar is certifiable madness.
I sincerely hope this recent hooha over implants puts paid to this escalating trend of tit jobs.

mishtake, my friend has the same and feels the same!

Agree Mishtake.
Did you ever want a reconstruction?
I was like you with the prosthesis, I couldn't wait to take it out.
'The thought of slicing a healthy young breast open and inserting something similar is certifiable madness'.
Best statement on this thread.

yy

I've found the majority of males have neither noticed or cared. The majority of females however were a whole different ball game

I suspect this is very true...women compete among themselves, but its not as important to the men they are in theory doing it all for.

(Men do the same - see sports car, red for eg),

Lady Beagle Eyes I hate my prostheses - I feel ridiculous wearing fake tits like a drag queen - and I feel very ambivalent about reconstruction.
I really don't miss my breasts but I do miss my nipples and I hate my painful scars.
But I cannot imagine a time will come when I will subject myself to 8-10 hours of surgery in order to have half my belly chopped off and sewn onto my chest.
I think there is way too much pressure on women to reconstruct actually. I often feel that I have to explain why I haven't done it.

But as has also been said, Cassette, it does affect all of us. The more people do it, the more it becomes the norm. The more our daughters want to do it etc.

The popular girl at school has a feather cut. Everyone wants a feather cut.

Except feather cuts aren't life-threatening.

Plus, it becomes part of an idealised and wholly unrealistic expectation of how bodies look. I know you get this really. I wonder why you are so keen to say it's only individual choice and it's fine?

What makes women make that choice if not the culture around them?

I'm not passing judgement in anyway at all - my best friend has implants, and I fully understand getting them as a self-esteem boost, from the perspective of "It's my body; it's for me".

But i have never been able to forget an observation by Elizabeth Wurtzel in her incredible feminist call to arms collection of essays Bitch, in which one is about Nicole and OJ Simpson. She documents how all the Brown sisters were Californian American Pie personified, how OJ made her entire family complicit in his abuse through various methods and that all the Brown sisters had breast implants but none had a college degree between them. It's a half point - she's not making the link between those two things for all women but she also points out that a friend of Nicole said that when she heard Nicole's breasts had also been slashed, she knew immediately who had killed her. Possession, possessions, a man's possessions....it's all uncomfortably linked.