To think that the West is seriously fucked up on the bosom front?

[Hullygully]

Bags of poison sewn into our infant feeding parts.

How fucked up is that?

Discourse m'dear.

Make-up seems to me to be (mostly) a pretty harmless way of making your own day, and that of others, a bit brighter and more cheerful. Sure, there are a few women out there who overdo make-up (there are always people who overdo things) but there are lot more who would look a lot better with a little more make-up than none.

Female self-adornment is common to pretty much every society across time and geographies.

Well I don't think willowisp is engaging in PARD and I can't be doing with being spoken to like that. I feel like I'm being bullied so I@m off. Thanks to everyone else for making it such a good debate

maya - you're quite right, but rather than leave, just point out that you would prefer polite and respectful engagement rather than aggressiveness.

Willow, please use PARD like the rest of us.

"there are lot more who would look a lot better with a little more make-up than none."

But Bonsoir - can't you see? That's exactly the kind of thing we're talking about here. Who says women would look better? It's a societal thing again - enhance your looks so that other people think you look better.

I agree that most cultures go in for adornment to nab a man or woman and indeed in some cultures men spend longer on it than women although that's rarer. However too many women spend so long on it and it becomes so important to them (how they look) that it does not lead for them to happy lives which is why most of the major religions tend to say vanity is not a great thing.

They also say women should subordinate themselves to their husbands etc.

Pick n mix is all very well, but I think it better to leave religion out of it. On balance it has done women great disservices.

No.

Both sexes have always been concerned to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex. Plenty of my ds' friends have their brows threaded, use potions and unguents and a little makeup on their spots etc.

Again though, it has become an industry. There are vested interests in women buying expensive make up and anti wrinkle serum retinol A nonsense to hold back the inevitale journey to the grave.

It's the market that perpetuates and keeps it all going.

It's not all about vanity though, is it Xenia? I have a close friend who won't leave the house without inches of slap, long swishy hair, perfect nails etc. She isn't vain, not at all, she's desperately insecure.

She expresses jealousy of me. I'm funny looking, short hair, no makeup, dress like a student. But this gorgeous, stunning, funny, intelligent, talented woman is jealous of me because I don't feel pressure to look "done." Very odd indeed.

Well, could I ask, politely, that you refrain from talking to posters like that in further posts on this thread? It doesn't really help the debate that is being had at all.

yy

Inner confidence, as said before. By far the most attractive trait in a person.

Religion doesn't tend to make people happier. I prefer make-up to religion as a way of getting through the day!

Have to disagree there, Bonsoir! Religion, properly adhered to, removes doubt.

You'll never meet a happier bunch of people than the religious of Northern Ireland, especially the Saved lot.

Ooo tell us about them.

I love bonkers religios.

LOL, well my favourite for baiting discussion are the Evangelical lot - every weekend in the summer, they set up with megaphone and pulpit on the promenade in town, and preach hellfire and brimstone at all the passing sinners. And sing dirges too. They threatened to call the police when my friend dared to question their right to do so, funny little men.

Indeed, LeninGrad, and nor is being religious any guarantee that a person is of sound morals.

I agree. I didn't mean you had to be religious to see vanity as sinful but I suspect since more people in the UK ceased to have a religion then have taken up a religion of consumerism, self indulgence, me me me, take take take and hours spent on their looks when they might be better off helping others. You don't need religion to give up vanity but it seems to have helped many people to realise that concentratiion on how you appear is a pretty bad sinful thing.

That's a bit of a massive value judgement right there.

The concept of "sin" is problematic in itself, let alone the concept of an objective moral code. The problem is not that individual women think they need to look a certain way to be accepted - the problem is the society they exist in that doesn't accept them unless they conform!

No Len, I don't think they are the same, not nearly as strong on boys, or as much involved in what's required.

It's really hard to separate it all out. My dd is 13 and ds 14 so I have two little case studies right in my own home. Dd very much wants to be part of the alpha crowd (luckily they are very nice), and therefore wears and does what's required. What I have noticed is that whereas I wear little make up (apart from powder to hide my red nose), don't bother with my hair, live in jeans, opine long and loud on the beauty industry etc etc, her friends' mothers go to spas and have their hair done etc (mainly professional women) and their daughters buy into the whole "grooming/looking after oneself" thing. Mine is joining in, but I imagine that's largely to fit in. She is also very "lucky" because she is very pretty (freak genetics), and is seen as such by her peers and given status by it.

So, I think that with her, because the whole appearance thing is a huge part of her group, she buys into it because being part of that group is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in her life. But I wonder if she'll come out the other side thanks to early indoctrination.

Ds cares about his appearance, but he and his friends have a group where appearance (other than not looking like a pillock) isn't really part of it.

It's all very interesting to watch.

Xenia, I am really surprised to see you using terms like "sin" and other religious terms.

Religion has never precluded vanity. As I said earlier, have you ever known anyone practise what they preach?!

Crunchy - I love them already. I want to go and meet them. They sound like Mrs Winterson's lot.

I personally think therapy should be compulsory before sugery not in a understanding the risks way, but non profit seperate pychologists who try to help the person accept thier body, and the psychologist should okay treatment or decline treatment. Many people do have body issues but surgery is not the answer, because there is nothing physically wrong mental health lack of confidance body issues are whats wrong.

It is wrong for companies to market products that help lose weight, or suppress appettite to people who suffer with anorexia (E.G anorexics need no longer suffer hunger pains with our product you can diet without any pain) because they are profiting from mental illness and endangering the persons llife this is no different.