to think Beaver's shouldn't allow girls, as Rainbows don't allow boys?

[CoralRose]

Can't see why it is this way? DS is asking... what's the answer? Why are girls allowed to join beavers, but boys not allowed to join rainbows?

Someone has already mentioned that numbers in Scouting were falling drastically. Allowing girls to join ensured that Scouting survived. GirlGuiding UK asi it is now known DID make moves to have boys join and changed its name from the Girl Guide Association to the Guide Association. However for various reasons, such as the problems it would cause for certain religions and also the simple fact that no boys actually wanted to join the move was dropped and the "girl" was picked up again.

Mrs H please don't judge all Rainbow units on the basis of one. IME the units in my area are fantastic. My DD loved every second of her 2 years, and thanks to the leaders care and attention was thoroughly prepared to go onto Brownies, which she is also enjoying.

It's wrong that girls get to be in a traditionally boys organisation but boys don't get the same treatment.

You can bang on about stereotyping as much as you like, but there is always a reason why groups a given the stereotype they have, and usually it's because the live up to it.

There wil always be boys that don't like the things that are typically boyish, and vice versa for girls. So both organisations should stick to what they do best and allow the other sex to join if they wish.

The cultural reasons thing is bollocks, and it's not made ok just because someone wants to attach a cultural label to what is a silly reason not to allow boys into the rainbows or brownies. If some children wouldn't be allowed to join because of their religion, I don't see how that is a better reason than not being allowed to join because of your sex.

At least parents can freely choose to follow a religion and the restriction it puts on them, they don't have the same luxury when it comes to choosing the sex or personality of their children.

What does your do?

At ours they only do very girly craft activities and run/scream.Literally that's it and I pay £10 a half term.Somebody spat at dd last week.

Counting down the weeks until Brownies but she can't go until 8(only just turned 7).

MrsH - ours did do a fair amount of craft, but also went out and about the district for various walks (in parks, local countryside areas as well as local roads), played games (indoors and out), cooking, knitting and sewing, annual sausage sizzle, sleep overs, charity events, shows, worked for badges and joint activiteis with the Brownies. They also went on lots of trips.

They start Brownies at 7.

Ours has upped the age to 8 as they don't feel they're ready(can't think why).Yours sounds an awful lot better.

I'm surprised that they're allowed to do that - you could check with the District Commissioner. Do they stay at Rainbows until they're 8 or just hang around for a year?

"The Guide movement was allowed to keep its single sex status because there are girls who would not be allowed, for cultural and religious reasons to join if it was not a girl only organisation. This is true in this country, but even more so in some other parts of the world."

So rather than challenge the nonsensical, patronising and deeply misogynistic history of the "Keep girls away from boys!!!!" thing, we are forced to allow discriminatory practises to continue. Because, after all, if a fucked-up practise has a religion behind it that instantly makes it acceptable.

And there was me thinking it was the 21st century...

I don't for one second think that the two organisations should provide different activities to suit either gender. I do however feel that it is unfair that girls can choose to be in an all girl environment, and boys can't.

If it were the other way round, I can't help but feel there would be outrage. Girls get a lot of support to be treated equally, and encouraged to participate in activities that were once labelled as 'boyish'. This is great. What isn't great is that boys have to just 'lump it' that they would be laughed at for having an obsession interest in, say, Disney Princesses (DS2). In fact, DS was one of two boys that went to a childs birthday party. The theme was princesses, for everyone except the two boys, who had a pirate theme. DS was devastated. I could never imagine that happening the other way (i.e. a pirate theme party, but girls provided with a different 'girly' theme).

"The Guide movement was allowed to keep its single sex status because there are girls who would not be allowed, for cultural and religious reasons to join if it was not a girl only organisation. This is true in this country, but even more so in some other parts of the world."

So it's acceptable to be sexist if it's your religion, or your culture?

They stay at Rainbows-yay!!!!!

We are having an issue with this just now, my son is in the scouts and it's a fairly small unit, there are two girls who on their ownh are fine they get stuck in etc etc. When they are together they are a nightmare and it's really getting my son down, imo those two girls should not be at scouts, for a start they don't hold the values of the scouting movement. It's a real shame because it's putting my son off from going and he used to love it.

That said i do think girls should be allowed to join beavers etc.

I am not sure. My girls went to brownies/Guides but think DD2 would have prefferred cubs. She is quite 'boyish'. My boys go to Cubs and there are no girls there but have seen them at camp in other packs. I think it is a good thing girls can join but can see both sides. I never sent my girls to ballet as it seemed 'too feminine', it just never appealed to me. Terrible the poster above whose boy was shunned from a group of girls! Boys should be encouraged to make it more mixed.

What isn't right is that girls get to choose mixed or girls-only, whereas boys only have the option of mixed.

Scouts and Guides are separate organisations. They don't have to reciprocate arrangements. If a girl enjoys the company of boys and asks to join Beavers rather than Rainbows maybe she is more of a rough and tumble type. The only eyebrow I would raise is are 6 year olds really that aware of the difference in activities in the two groups, or is it just the parents in some cases wanting to be a bit 'different' and avoid the mainstream?

Son started Beavers last night. One girl there, don't know how long she has been going or what she thinks of it.

Of course sexism is not acceptable if it is part of religion/culture. But it's also not acceptable for girl children to be left out of something good because their elders hold ridiculous views.

As I said, are you prepared for girls to miss out entirely- to have no choice so that boys can have more?

Sorry can I just laugh a lot at: "there is always a reason why groups a given the stereotype they have, and usually it's because the[y] live up to it"?

Brilliant, an end to the problems of racism/sexism/religious intolerance/homophobia etc etc etc - WHY didn't we realise before that the bigots were right, and everyone should just suck it up?

"Soup dragon, so you would rather limit choices for girls- that is, make it impossible for them to join the Scout and Guide movement at all- in order to give boys more choice?"

Why is it worse to discriminate against a child due to their religion than it is to discriminate agains a child due to their sex?

When our Scout group decided to allow girls it was because the Beaver leader, the Cub leader and the Scout leader all had daughters, and wanted to bring their daughters with them rather than arrange childcare. At one time it was up to individual groups to decide whether to take girls or not.
Our local Guides have no boys, but I think it is because no boys want to join.

I think you just have to accept that it is the way it is.

If scouting had not decided to admit women then it would probably no longer exist in this country - for girls OR for boys. For a long period there were not enough boys wanting to join to make it viable - even more importantly there are not enough MEN willing to take on responsibility for running the units. You can't insist the organisation is "male only" when it is being run in many many cases by women. So it is nothing to do with sexism, and space to be boys - it is simply a matter of what needs to be done to keep the movement going.

Whereas guides has never had a problem with numbers, and has had no need to change their rules. They considered doing it anyway for the sake of equity, but there wasn't really much call for it, and there were good reasons not to (see Seeker's post(s)).

So in the end - you are just going to have to accept that it isn't a matter of sexism or equality, but simply a matter of the way things had to be.

I do find it interesting though that 99% of those who argue that the situation is wrong actually don't want girls to be allowed in their son's Beaver/Cub unit, rather than want to enrol their sons in Rainbows/Brownies. And thus don't appear to actually want equality and equal access, but just to stop girls from "changing the way things are" in Scouting.

FWIW - I am a Guiding leader and an assistant beaver leader - we actually have no girls in our beaver or cub units, but all the leaders are women as we can't find any men willing to commit the time. So really it is not a "male space" even then.

YANBU I have boys and a girl and my dd definately loves to have her own clubs and is now enjoying Guides where they do "boy" things as well as "girly" things. Sometimes you need girls so that boys can have a go at girly things was one argument but I've not seen any real evidence of that. As for my boys one gave up half-way through just didn't enjoy it, one lost interest early on. Both felt it was unfair but it didn't influence their decisions to join or not it just made them question it. Even as adults we need our own space don't we?

Because, pragmqtically, boys do have the option of joining the movement. Some girls wouldn't if Guides stopped being girls only.

Not saying it's right. But until some adults stop believing crap, we have to do all we can to give their daughters opportunities.

And, more controversially- well, very controversially- girls need for girls only spaces is much greater than boys need for boys only spaces. So much of the world is boys only already..........

You will notice that I did specify in this country where the incidences of such religious objections are likely to be rare and unlikely to coincide with boys who want to join anyway.

Where sexism is part of the way of life in a country then it would be up to their guiding organisation to decide. It is not an acceptable way of life in this country (or shouldn't be) so the sexism should be removed from the UK association.

"So much of the world is boys only already.........."

Not in this country it isn't.

What do you do if your daughter wants to be a boy?

My youngest has her name down for beavers, to start after Easter because there is no way she wanted to go to Rainbows.
She refuses to identify herself as a girl, and often tells us she want's to be a boy when she grows up.
Should she miss out entirely because beavers is better being boys only?