to think Beaver's shouldn't allow girls, as Rainbows don't allow boys?

[CoralRose]

Can't see why it is this way? DS is asking... what's the answer? Why are girls allowed to join beavers, but boys not allowed to join rainbows?

"The Guide movement was allowed to keep its single sex status because there are girls who would not be allowed, for cultural and religious reasons to join if it was not a girl only organisation. This is true in this country, but even more so in some other parts of the world."

what seeker said.
noone's noticing that one.
the real reason.

I agree seeker and think its very healthy for mixed genders to get stuck in to a range of activities together. In only a few weeks, by son has been heartened that a girl rugby tackled him... I suspect a beautiful friendship is being forged.

I left Brownies pronto, and joined a Church run youth club, mixed genders were never ever an issue. We did a wide range of activities from playing dodgeball to baking cakes, there was no divide between 'girl stuff' and 'boy stuff' although there were a few romances as we all got older, we mucked in together and I learned that it didn't matter what sex you are, we all have different strengths and weaknesses, likes and dislikes.

OnlyANinja, I have two DSs and one DD. I thought it was nurture, not nature, that made a difference. I was shocked that DS1 wanted to make a gun out of everything - toast, a twig, etc and was very bouncy. DD was pretty bouncy, but she did like other babies much more than DS1 ever did, although he has changed now. At primary school there seems to be a lot of carpet time, where DC are expected to sit and be still, and DD was always much better at that than both DSs. DSs got in trouble for wanting to run around as fast as possible at breaktime; DD didn't want to do that. I know that I am making generalisations, but it seems to be like that for a lot of the DC that I know.

seeker - those are all activities that Guides can do.

But boys and girls ARE different! Why must everyone be the same? Please can we acknowledge that there are gender differences and celebrate that rather than try and make all our children the same. Children are individuals and I think a lot of people forge that, especially the smug mins of girls that seem to be prevalent at DS' school. They are comparing their daughters with others boys. I have heard them called all sorts of names such as feral and little shits because they are not quiet, demure little girls but boisterous normal little boys. (talking 5/6/7)

So you have a sample size of 3 Judy?

Individuals are different. Your happen to be different in this particular way. It doesn't confirm or deny any hypotheses about what "girls" and "boys" are like.

By the time your DS1 was old enough to know the concept of "gun" he had been exposed to many years of a society that believes that boys like to play with guns and believed that he was a boy. No matter how much you try to treat your children the same they will experience the world in quite different ways.

"The Guide movement was allowed to keep its single sex status because there are girls who would not be allowed, for cultural and religious reasons to join if it was not a girl only organisation. This is true in this country, but even more so in some other parts of the world."

I disagree with this reasoning for our country. I think it is unfair on boys that they do not have a boys only organisation or that they can not join the guiding organisation instead. Offering them less choice than girls is not fair.

I think mixing up genders does NOT make everyone the same, it makes them equal and celebrates there difference.

Equal only means the same value as, not 'the same as'.

You might be interested to know that here in Sweden Scouts and Guides merged into one organisation way back in the 1970s. So ...

'The Guide movement was allowed to keep its single sex status because there are girls who would not be allowed, for cultural and religious reasons to join if it was not a girl only organisation. This is true in this country, but even more so in some other parts of the world.'

... isn't entirely correct. The movement already has males in it.

ALL children are different from each other. Grr. I am going to put some shelves up vigorously. Can feel myself getting wound up.

Agree Stewie good links, thanks I shall read them properly when I'm calmer

When ds (age 2) started ballet, he suffered from skirt jealousy. He's say "can't do that as I haven't a skirt to hold". He's grown out of that and was explaining why he likes his leotard last week. But the ballet school is blue not pink, and personally I think it looks nicer.

I did Beavers this week. We have one girl in the colony.

We also have one boy who is a bit less happy about the rough and tumble. He's getting there, but because it was the first week back he was a wee bit unsure. He was the one that helped me get everything ready while the others played games, while she ran herself ragged playing.

Should I be saying that he shouldn't be there, or that she shouldn't be?

Each child is individual and we have to try and support each one individually. Not easy when you can't get anyone to become a leader, but that's a separate argument.

Boys and girls MAY OR MAY NOT be different.

We live in a society that has so much cultural conditioning about supposed sex differences that it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell what the intrinsic differences are, or if they even exist.

What's very likely is that even if boys and girls are ON AVERAGE different, there will be a lot of overlap and you would be doing a large number of children a great disfavour by treating them as if they fall neatly into two distinct groups.

Can I point out again that Scout numbers were falling rapidly so they allowed girls in to make up the shortfall? Thank you. Can't speak for Guides but what seeker says sounds right.

Fwiw, I think it would be great if boys had the chance to join Rainbows and Brownies. I've always assumed that gender stereotyping was a load of old twaddle.

When the dds did ballet and there were boys there, the boys always got special little things to do, with there only being 2 of them, whilst the hordes of girls got to stand in ranks and get lost in the crowd.

i think there's usually a boy-alternative for skirt-holding, just as they bow rather than curtseying.

I would also imagine there have been lots of girls who were eager to join Scouts (especially when guiding was as lame as it was in the early 90s, when I was one!), but the only boys who would ever say they wanted to join Guides would be the egged-on sons of choleric Mail readers trying to prove some sort of point about how sexism cuts both ways blah blah.

In general it's much more acceptable for a girl to say she wants to do things that are considered "boy things" than it is for a boy to say he wants to do things that are considered "girl things".

OnlyANinja - I didn't say it was only true about my 3, I did say that it held true for most of the DC that I knew, too.

I think it is a good thing for boys in particular to be able to do something without having to worry about hurting, physically, girls. I know that not all girls like sewing and not all boys like football. I know that I am generalising, but the OP was ISBU about Beavers and I don't think she is.

Soup dragon, so you would rather limit choices for girls- that is, make it impossible for them to join the Scout and Guide movement at all- in order to give boys more choice?

But "most of the DC that you know" all grew up in a world that treated them differently depending on whether they were a girl or a boy, so of course they behave differently, they've been treated differently from the moment they were born.

Probably . Doesn't make me change my mind about the OP, though . I was truly shocked at how different DC are and quite a lot of it is through nature, though. there are not many girls that I know that like getting muddy and cold on Saturday mornings at football, there are some, I know. DS2 doesn't like it, either, but if you look at the number of football clubs you can see that the majority of them are boys and they obviously love getting dirty and cold and the majority of dancers seem to be girls where it's inside and warm. That's all I'm saying .

Rainbows is shit.

My dd deeply regrets not putting her name down for Beavers,unfortunately she's stuck with it until Brownies(big waiting list for both).

Beavers is fab,her brothers go as do quite a few girls.Would be cross if it wasn't even an option for dd.

Boys should be allowed to go to Rainbows but to be frank I don't think there would be a single boy on the planet who would want to.I have quite a 'girly' boy and believe you me he wouldn't have given you a thank you for the opportunity to go.

My daughter plays for our local youth football club, IloveJudgeJudy and there are an equal amount of girls and boys teams in every age group from Under 7's all the way up to under 16's.